Special Committee on Drowning Prevention

>> Get out. The known as 30, 30 is OCTOBER. 21st. Welcome to a special committee on drowning prevention with introductions to left. >> Good afternoon, Joyner. He's mayor's office even with council research Pearson, counselor. >> Good afternoon, Tyrone. A climber redistricting. >> Get out. The resident Anthony Gioia District 8. My gay district, 2. Good, good. Thank you, everyone for coming out today. I really appreciate I think enough or fulfill and we have learned a lot. >> I know I have learned a lot learned a lot of new initiatives, things we haven't been doing things that we should be doing we're getting close to it. And I think in the next couple of weeks and few weeks, I think it's my goal to, you know, wrap this up. You know. So I think at that is mean and what I would like to see potentially with the head of days. We him go but potentially wrapping Ian up special by MISS A week. You guys I was specially committee have brought a lot of great information to our attention and that I think in a good place. Me personally and turns I want to head in moderation in terms of legislation. So. We've got a loaded agenda today which jump straight into it. Before we get started, I want to make sure we get approve what was said Meet many minutes. Also, thank you. I appreciate that. So let's get into it. We got another great presentation, you know, from Iowa, especially committing we get right into it. So thank you. Go foot. >> All right. Good afternoon. Members committee Tyler Nolan, Northeast Florida Regional Council, 40 East Adams Street. I'm chief Ayoob is here with me as well. But he wanted me to pass the time this meeting. He was up before you a lot the last time. So a little update on the working group since we last met. Obviously, you've seen this slide a couple of times in that box keeps getting moved further down. That timeline. So we're working diligently to be able to get you take every bit of information that we've been having from these meetings, synthesize it, put it into recommendations and ultimately prepare for that final report that you'll have tasked us with forming at the last meeting. We had very lengthy discussions about the layering of prevention efforts that we are building in right? The elopement prevention piece of it. If folks are individuals with intellectual and developmental differences, ultimately do get out of their home. The elopement recovery. How do we find them faster? And then if forbid, they do find themselves a retention pond or some other body of water ways to potentially flow and swimming lessons and things that hopefully still buy us some time to find them before the ultimate tragedy happened. So sense that the working group has still been going down those roads in looking at those 3 focus areas. I think you all know that when we talked about the fence discussion or buffers at city Ponds, we are very limited due to Senate Bill. 180 when it comes to private facilities and you're going to hear some of those you asked for the water management district. They're here today. They're going to present on some of those rules and legislations on a state level. You've obviously heard it on the local level of what you have at your fingertips in at your disposal. To kind of recap some of the things that really do keep rising to the top is this working group sustain that some of the initiatives and some of the things are going to take time to put into place and make sure that they are put in place. Well, so one of the big recommendations is that in some way, shape or fashion, a working group that works to implement these actions continues in at least in foreseeable future to kind of work on these issues, building that framework really looking at everything and how it coalesce together. We are looking partnering dcps. They're also here today that they're going help with the presentation looking at what we can do on a school structure. Obviously dcps has their public school system, but there's also a charter school system that while the dcps MAY have some influence on it takes a community buy-in across all education sectors to kind of implement the some of these things. So we're research an still working diligently. We'll have another meeting next week to kind of get it. Some of these things more finalized and brought back before you is kind of what MAY work and what MAY not looking at it from both ends of that spectrum. We are seeing that when it comes to water training or safety training. We know that we there are a number of private options out there. That's when mean training in general is hard to come by with the biggest barrier to our families being transportation. So we're looking at that. We're trying to think outside the box. Maybe there's some innovative ways to bring that stuff in Jfrd is doing a fantastic job of doing some research in understanding what it would mean to bring in some trailers are some sort of water training that we can bring to people not had them have to get to it. So I think that's a pretty out of the initiative that we're working on. Obviously, we've talked about the GIs mapping and what it meant. I meant the with 9700 ponds across Duval County. When we looked at the data and with that, how can we do a little bit more of a risk analysis? So that 1000 foot buffer of high-risk properties, I'm really looking at those high density areas. We learned that we we compared them to schools when we compared them to other significant locations. A lot of those were either set back far enough or already had a fence in place. So we think looking at this at this 1000 foot buffer for more high-density areas MAY be the better way to kind of get a risk analysis of that. Targeted registry outreach. We talk about revamp all of the programs and things and it really comes down to public messaging. And I think you'll hear more and more of that as we go through, but really trying to outreach to the public that Jfrd and city organizations have really, really great programs. We just got to get more. Folks signed up so working on that targeted registry outreach and then we're working in that hardware. We're seeing in tier 2 kids. We know that alarms and locks and all of these things are really, really great to help a low rent. But there are probably some families out there that need some assistance acquiring those items. We have a number of partners here in the city of Jacksonville. We have some already that are at the table. Part of the working group and such as Home Depot. And they've been a part of the discussions and looking at how they can provide some of those things to the city. But there's a whole other ancillary of hardware stores and things that MAY be one a partner as well. So really starting to expand upon those resources in those partnerships. Continuing the subject matter consultation and just really looking at these educational assets as we kind of tie everything together and really look at what it means from a long terms for perspective. I've had it once already, but really public messaging is going to be the key to all of this weather. There's a new program, site of programs, whatever it MAY be, the public messaging that comes with that is it can't be understated. Now with that, we did talk about the centralized landing page that comes with difficulties that comes with funding constraints that comes with who is going to ultimately own it. How is it going to be updated? How is it going to be monitored, right? These are these are long-term decisions that have to happen long before any of this stuff is kind of put into place. So we're having those discussions and I think you all are thinking about it in your own right? Because we've had those discussions with you several times. The event calendar is a really great when there's a ton of tremendous partnerships that happened here. Whether it's Red Cross dcps, Jacksonville, Fire, Rescue Department somewhere. Somehow we all need to communicate that we hosting events and that these partner organizations can be at each other's events to push this information to the members of the public at every opportunity we can get. And that all comes down. Still with that enhance community outreach. So I'm going to be really in those statement because I know that you want to hear from our other speakers, but I will say, Councilmember Gaffney alluded to, the meetings are coming to an end rather quickly. So I think at the next meeting we are going to kind of recap some of our ideas, our thoughts and where we choose to pick those recommendations. I'm going to ask you help us in that process and really poke holes in our ideas and things because as we ultimately craft that final report for you all, we want to make sure that we're capturing exactly what your intent is and what your ultimate goals are for this process moving forward. So if unless you have any questions for me, which it looks like you do all stand by. Yeah. Thank you. >> If you don't mind, could you elaborate on 1000 foot buffer? Is that city retention ponds that profit? >> No, it we I think we're looking at it on on a sauna entirety. Look because of with that. We have it in the GIs mapping system. So it's just running that analysis in the computer system. So it's not necessarily a lot of additional work. Now, there is time with that. And it you're GIs Department is I think, actively working on that right now. But to actually look at that and run the computer modeling more than anything. I appreciate it. So going have question. >> All right. When thing that we have an agenda jfrd with you guys with ups? Yeah, we're gonna I'm gonna turn it over to DR. Heather out Britain well. Is Jason Merkin >> Good afternoon at DR. Britain, Duval County public. >> Rules and good afternoon. I'm Jason Murchison directive, exceptional education and student services with the Ball County Public schools. >> All right. So as you can imagine, Duval County Public Schools is uniquely positioned to address the education component where we stand with water, safety and water prevention. So we want to talk about where we currently have a foundation in place, right? So we're talking about family information. So Florida law currently requires us to provide information to our families on drowning prevention where they can find swimming lessons, resources. We have that on our home page well as on our health and physical education pages. So we know that there are opportunities in which we can through that. But the cps's position to be the mouthpiece or some of the information and resource hubs that we put in place with this work group. >> As a district, we also have health education and physical education that is required. >> For all students in k through 12, that is a woven part of our physical education. There are existing benchmarks that are set through the state of Florida that require safety preventer injury prevention and water safety instruction for all of our students. There's only about 12 benchmarks throughout Pre k through 12. There's not a lot of instruction that takes place, but there is a place right now that we see that construction taking place, especially in our elementary schools. We do want to point out that it is very different when we think about instruction for water safety and then confidence with the skills of swimming. Right? So we're not instructing them to swim or more. So pointing out how they can be safe situations that they MAY be put in in decisions that they can make to improve whatever outcome that MAY be that MAY occur opportunities to reinforce hazard recognition, safe decision-making and knowing when and how to seek help are some of our main focuses then community connections. Right? So we are we are hoping that through this work we can highlight the community connections that we have and really strengthen those to make sure that our parents that we have direct access to get those in from get that information and get those resources. We also when we're considering these opportunities to expand water, education, water, safety, education. >> We know that we have barriers. That's always the first thing that comes up is the things that we cannot do and the things that stand in our place. >> The first being access, not every family has access same opportunity to participate in swim lessons or they have transportation issues, cost issues scheduling. So we recognize that and are willing to help kind of. Come up with solutions to mitigate those issues. And we recognize that some of our students with disabilities have particularly those who wonder we also have difficulty recognizing those dangerous situations. So Jason is going to talk about that in a few minutes. But one of the biggest barriers that we have is always going to be instructional time. We have limited instructional time. We have very structured days and which we are required to teach things within those state required minutes. But we're actually where absolutely committed to figuring out how we can overcome those barriers and creative ways with this committee. Turn it over to Jason for our next part. >> So just briefly from an exceptional education and student services perspective, one of our primary considerations is ensuring that water safety information and prevention resources are acessible to all of our students and families, including. Families from different cultural backgrounds that are multi-lingual state. So we recognize that some of our students as doctor operating stated, are greater risks because of the wandering or some have sensory needs or communication challenges and and some will also limit safety awareness. So we just want to make sure that as we support those families that the information being provided as it is a sensible. So all of them, we recognize also that the workgroup has become working through some of the barriers that already exist. So some of the swimming and also some transportation issues have already been open so again, we're just really want to focus on making sure that all the information provided to our families are acessible. >> If you can get closer to the mike. So I know it was having a hard time the back. It was recorded. Thank you. Appreciate it. >> So that's pretty much all I had to say. Any questions. We'll be happy to answer it. >> Do have a question. Thank you for that presentation You guys. Relationship charter schools. Course, I don't know the relation, but how do kids that charter school private schools get same information? Alright, disinformation that you guys have this database. It's a resource hub. He's only the couple to kids who attend to again, the schools who in Duval County schools. >> Know, sir. So the resources that are on our public facing website are available to everyone if it's on so like our specific individual lessons that we have in our physical education classes or anything, that's proprietary to the cps would be on our share point are in our curriculum guide that you would have to have a dcps log into. But a lot of the resources that we've talked about and that we're working on putting in one central place would be connected to everything that the city has access to. So it would be more of a communication for us to make sure that the charters and the private schools with no pay. These are available not just to dcps students, but all students in all families in Duval County. >> They will any questions. All right. Appreciate your presentation. All right, Tom, a. >> Yes. Now you Mary Ellen Winkler, who is the assistant executive director of the Saint Johns River, Water Management District. Good afternoon at >> As I'm Mary Ellen Winkler from the Saint Johns River, Water Management District, 4, 0, 4, 9, Reed Street and Placa. I'm also on a personal note, the mother of child on the autism spectrum. This is personal to me and I've had to deal with the prevention in my own home. So important issue and appreciate the work. I've had the opportunity to observe and participate with the team that's been tasks by the city and just wanted to let you know. As someone from another agency I'm impressed with the work and the effort your team's putting into it and impressed as a mother with the care and concern that your staff and this group has has worked so h# # said. Thank you for that. Just a brief overview of our water management district. If you're not familiar with us, there's 5 water management districts in Florida and they generally follow the surface water boundaries of our major water features in this state. So this Saint John's, we are the basin of the Saint Johns River, our namesake, we cover 18 counties and northeast and east-central Florida. About 6 million people within our jurisdiction as you all well know, we have many important features 1400 lakes 148 springs that we are charged with protecting we have a it admissions. One is water supply. So for example, jta comes to us for its permits to with draw water from the Florida and aquifer. We also manage flood protection and in the Saint Johns River in the upper part and along the chain of lakes, the Harris chain of Lakes and Lake County. We also own about 700,000 acres of land. So we manage quite a bit of land. And most of that is wetlands. Really? Our goal at the Saint Johns is flood protection for us is trying to protect those floodplain wetlands. So we have a lot of ownership of wetlands. But what I'm here to talk to you today about his environmental resource permitting. And so that is one of our major jobs. The typical developments that you see come to the Saint Johns for if they have what one impacts plan to do. Stormwater management system. This just gives you an idea of our throughout our 18 counties and it's been increasing over last several years. But we're getting closer to 4,000 permits a year and within those permits, there's typically more than one storm water pond. So we have depending on the size of the being many prawns stormwater ponds within the system. So just wanted to give you a sense of how many permits we deal with on a yearly basis. >> Permitting in Florida, it used to be that each of the water management districts had its own environmental resource permitting product program with. That's an unique rules we've been in business. We've existed for a 50 over 50 years now. So we have many decades of experience in permitting back in 2013, the state passed that the water management districts, the Department of Environmental Protection make one unified consistent program. And so the statewide erp programs work, you'll hear that term used is the state word program that guides the permit review permits how you applied the permitting criteria. How permits are transferred. So that's that statewide program. And that statewide uniform luck is in what's called Arce were applicants handbook, volume one. We also here in Saint Johns and all of the other districts also have what's called volume 2 and volume 2 is to address the unique issues each of the districts. We are geologically different have unique challenges the each of the districts so our volume Tu has unique cry to your criteria. For example, we along the in the Apopka down in central Florida. There's nutrient issues. So there's some special criteria that apply to projects in that area. Volume 2. Also, Korea has within it performance metrics related to stormwater ponds. And one of those is related to safety. And for wet ponds. We require that if you have a steep slide side s# # , which would mean steeper than a 41 spied slowed. That the pond mess be fenced or have some sort of barrier. And I put some examples of like what? At 3 to one to one and one to one. Those steeper side slopes that you see in the graphic are ones that we would require be fenced or some sort of barrier. We have in response to the events of AUGUST. I've asked our staff to research. We don't have it checkbox in our system that says this pond required fencing. But we did a search of all of the technical staff reports in our system in Duval County to find permits that had fencing requirement. We found those. It's not many less than 20. I did our compliance staff to a compliance check of all of those permits. And we did not find any that were out of compliance. They all had the required fencing. In terms of operation and maintenance requirements. The district does not maintain any of the stormwater ponds when a permit is issued by the district during the permit review process. One of the criterion that the permittee the permit applicant must meet is that they have to establish and tell us who that final operation and maintenance entity will be. So, for example, it could be the city or it could be a homeowner's estates association. We have to be notified. And then we examined whether that entity has the administrative legal and financial capability to manage the system. So, for example, in the case of the homeowners association, we will actually review the articles and of incorporation of the H.O.A. And they're deed restrictions to make sure that language exist. That makes it clear that they had that future requirement, a future obligation to maintain the system and purpa to So what's important to note is that once the permit is converted to a it is upon completion of construction. It is converted to the operation and maintenance phase. There. Is it typically a check done by us to make sure when those has built or submitted that we've reviewed it, that everything's okay. And it's important to note that the obligation to operate and maintain the system once it's transferred from that construction phase to operation and maintenance is in perpetuity. So that obligation it is goes on until there, you know that. Obligations where be transferred to someone else the other requirement that is important to note is that we have permittees are required to manage and maintain all components of the water management storm, water management system that includes the side slopes. So this is a condition that is on all permits that we get issue. This is a standard permit condition on this slide that and makes it a requirement. So if you're pond's side s# # for whatever reason, experiences erosion, sometimes you get an effect called benching sometimes on the larger ponds, you might see some wave action in the pond and you might get some are Asian. It is obligation of the permittee to make sure those slopes are maintained. I will also say that since our program began, there is also an inspection requirement. And so every 2 years, whoever that operation and maintenance entity is they are required to inspect that pond. In 2024, there was a stunt change to the rules. >> And there is now am instead of 2 years. It depends on the type of system. So there is a chart and in the applicant's handbook, depending on the type of system that was built. It could be any ranging between one and 5 years now, depending on the type of system. But his Doric Lee up to 2024. For everything generally it was 2 years. There's a couple of types of systems that were one year. But generally, I would say, too. And then since 2024, permittees are required to follow the chart for this specific type of system that built. And with that, I would be happy answer any questions. We'll go my left them legal. COUNCILWOMAN. >> Thank you. Chair. Good afternoon to you again. >> So I notice that. >> The term safety is used in regards to. Storm retention ponds in detention, ponds. How was safety being defined? According to Water Management District. I asked that question because regards to the safety aspect it has to do pond design as opposed to prevent teen. Someone from going into the pond. So how a safety being defined. Respond. Yes. So the water management districts all find the best. >> safety criteria that we have are related to the ability of the person to walk out of the pond. So basically the 41 side s# # was created as that metric so that if somebody was walking next to the pond are working next to the pond, if they fell in, they would be able to walk out. So that's that's the main metric that our rules are based on. Thank you for that. Through the chair. So in thinking about children. And the definition that you just gave of safety. >> Do you think it would be? Is it reasonable to apply that definition of safety? When talking about children? >> And if there was a determination that we needed to be more stringent, the process for us would be to go through rulemaking and the process would involve in and we'd have to have the facts to support. You know, there's this is a situation except recede have to have that basis. At that point because we are 18 counties. The analysis would be and and we're governed by chapter one. 20 of the Florida statutes are rulemaking process. So that process would be that. If the regulatory cost reached $200,000 which we would likely over 18 counties. If you fenced all the ponds, we would be required to do a statement of estimated regulatory costs. And then if that cost over 5 years reached a million dollars, we would be required to seek legislative ratification in Tallahassee to move forward with the rule. So it a process for us to go rulemaking and we would have to establish the factual basis to to to me fours. And the 2. So a factual basis. Actual basis. Okay. So the fact that and I'm very sure Duval County is not the only county that it's experiencing. >> The deaths of children and adults. Would those deaths that we've experienced recently? Be a part of that? That will be says. Justify changing the rules and looks like sounds like some kind of study would need to be done. Wright, you would have thought. >> Yes, you would include anything, anything that we do. For example. And if we were going to make more stringent, whatever there was a need to make more stringent requirements for water quality or whatever it might be. We would together that factual case. And in this case, certainly it would include. Here's here's what the law says. We've experienced. Would certainly be part of any kind of, you know, when we we would first go to a governing board move through the process. But you would definitely put that as part of here is why we are moving in this direction and that kind of thing. I would imagine all of the water management districts have the same side s# # requirement at this time. I think it would be something that if we move forward, we would obviously want to coordinate that with the other water management district said that were consistent statewide. So I don't know the situation in the other districts. I'm not aware of anyone moving forward on rulemaking. Certainly aware that, you know, this is not the first time it has happened. I think it's just one of the day's important decisions that those in leadership have to like our governing board or anyone else would have to make. But in terms of process, anytime we do rulemaking you establish, here's why we're doing And obviously costly factor into that. And then depending on the cost of the implementation, you kind You know, you could end up at the legislature wherever it might lead. I said it. It's you know, depends on, you know, certainly how you want to proceed. Now, the water management district, if the city itself with like we have situations in parts of our district where at the cities or counties have decided to be more stringent on other issues. So, for example, we set the floor. So our systems are designed to handle a 25 year 24 hour storm event which depending on where you are, is around 8 to 10 inches of rain. We had communities within our Chasen to regulate to the 100 year storm event. So if the city wanted to. Regulate and say we would like all of our ponds fence regardless of slide. You can certainly do that. You don't need in certain areas of the law and chapter 3.73 We have what's called field Preemptions. So, for example, in our consumptive use permitting program where we regulate taking water out of the arc for the district does how to feel prevention pre preemption and you would not be able regulate on this topic. We do not have feel preemption. Therefore, you the city, if you so chose if it's important to the community and that's the direction we'd like to go to have a more stringent regulation on stormwater ponds. You could certainly do that and not be in conflict with our rule. And testing through the chair. Yes, that's what Clinton was getting to. Thank you so much. Appreciate that. >> to the chair. >> Thinking about the >> design of The tension in detention, ponds. And thinking about we're the most recent death was. >> And I'm not sure if you are aware of where it occurred on our. >> Find a side of town, not pecan, too. Got to say city generally. >> Is there a requirement for >> builders? Developers in regards to if they are going to have a design that requires a retention pond, if he's in within a certain proximity of an residents. Or multifamily resident. Are they required to have a specific kind of design? For example, does it have to be the kind where it's essentially supposed to be dry that the water percolate within 72 hours if it's just one in which the water is held and then it essentially just held a MAY be pumped out. We can't whether it's a dry pond or wet pond is really a function of the soils. And so a dry up on in some parts of that is would be very difficult to construct in this area. We don't have that many in this area because of the soils. I will tell you personally, I live in a pond at a neighborhood with dry ponds, which is unusual. But that was. I-2, I have a unique situation and I have a child on spectrum. So that was a choice my family made given our situation so dry. Ponds are harder to find just because of soils, depending on where you are in Saint Johns County and in Duval County. But we don't have the regulation that says you have to build this type of pond. At this particular location. A lot of it is really driven by engineering decisions, wet soils. You have how much space you have to work with on the lot that you're designing on. So it's it's more of an engineering call. But again, if you get to that steeper side s# # then we require the barrier fence. Yield my made of my questions. Fernandez. I like the one that's combat. Thank you. Good to you. All right. Thank you for those questions. Days, you're recognized. >> thank you chair for that. As couple questions. Thank you, committee members for let me ask a couple questions here. >> As Barry Lynn, thank you for your. Subject matter. Expert expertise and sharing with us. If it weren't for a physical fence. If there were some sort of natural barrier that. Could be a hindrance, can you speak to speak to that, please, in your opinion. >> So in our rules, we allow fencing the typical like barrier would be sure every we see that sometimes typically I'm aware of one, for example, on a golf course where they they you know, was off to one side where they use some shrubbery at how steep s# # . So that's typically some sort of vegetative that barrier. But I would say the vast majority where it's required people like to do a fence. >> And men for follow-up question would in change the Florida 1, 3, 2, 1, 2, to one. With that. Have to go through the same rule making. >> Process right. So for us, we we have the rulemaking process and chapter one, 20 and so we would have to get through that process. And again, depending I guess I have not done the cost estimating, but given the number of ponds that we have over our 18 counties because for us, it wouldn't just affect Duval. It would affect 18, at least all or a portion of 18 counties. I would have to do that. Multiplication over how many ponds we would anticipate on a yearly basis. And then the cost to fence each of, you know, defense each pond. And then, you know, if it hits those thresholds in Chapter one, 20, then it would require legislative ratification is the process for us. Thank you. Thank you guys. Those questions. I have a few >> regards to compliance and I just want to mention this to correctly. So. Saint Johns, water management, you guys do the permit and then you guys turn it over today. A in a response before Anthony is special spent spent in the ponds. You say I want to 5 years. All right. Every 2 >> So for ones that have been issued. But if before 2024, they have to do an inspection. Every 2 years. With the new will. And it just depends on the I would say are in the two-year range. Ex filtration trenches, which are systems that are like underneath the ground are typically one year. So it's sort of like the less complicated the system, the new or updated rule in 2024, you can have a little more time like 3 years. So it's it's in that, you know, couple year range generally speaking. Yeah. >> Thank you for that. And I'm curious to know how many of these ponds throughout the year is filed out of compliance, you know, that and I guess you had a data with you now, but that will be a good question. And once these ponds are found out of compliance, then what? >> Sure. >> I can walk you through an example. We had a larger subdivision. That we determined they had a couple of issues, one of which was putting pond's side s# # . And so we worked with the H.O.A. The first thing we do, we basically that one was we received a complaint. And so we immediately sent out our inspector. They looked at the situation and we send a compliance assistance. Lauder in They that outlines. Here's what we found. It's a violation of x, y z condition. And so they'll get a list of things. And then that letter will typically give them a time frame to respond. And so we will do follow-up. And in that case, we worked with them to resolve all of the issues. It did take. I think in that case they spent over $10,000. They had a number of Ponce. That's a case where it's a large subdivision. They had a lot of ponds and it was an older subdivision so they hadn't done the retain maintenance. And so when they had to when we came and we saw that we had some steeper slopes and things they had to do a lot lot more work to get things back. So in that case, we worked with them, got it back in compliance and they're they're doing fine. So typically it's not that we're trying to run out and find people. It's here's the issues in and typically with a 2 ways, you know, it's a lot of education and and letting them know. Hey, this is what you need to do and to get back on track. >> One H.O.A. Is to not report to you guys. You know, I know you say every 2 years we talking about maybe over? I'm not sure 5 to 6,000 pond. That's a lot of bonds to be a spending. You know, a lot ways. You know, I'm not sure what type of system you guys have in place, but every 2 years, I'm pretty sure. Every H.O.A. And I don't I could be wrong is not reporting to you guys ever 2 years. Every one of 5 years write another one of my biggest fears is. One of 5 years that might be too late. You know, and terms of been inspected. >> So yeah, it we focus inspections on, you know, I can't be everywhere. Certainly. So we do our best. And I would say it MAY soften we would keep our eyes on. Typically the ones where you have obviously fencing things that are We do a lot of inspection work on the larger projects. We have a lot of a lot of pomp, ponds, a lot more complicated maintenance responsibilities. We also focus a lot ones where they might be using a treatment technology to meet the water. Quality requirements said there's we do try. We do have to kind of realistically breakdown. Okay. Here's our tier one tier 2 tier 3. What are the one more at risk versus less said that you're not as concerned about overtime c I think like any agency we got to focus and hone and based on experience where your trouble spots are and which ones have the highest probability of causing issues over time. >> What is his that are at risk for the team? The committee? I'm sorry. Response was safe take months. Yeah, we would want to look at anything with fencing. >> You know, we do you do regular compliance work in our larger larger developments where you have like 100 acre project with a lot of ponds. Those get a lot of attention. So that's where we we try to focus effort and also the larger the pond. You have some more maintenance, like I said, the larger the pond, you might get more wave action. So those are things where you get erosion. So we need to keep an eye on those. >> One last question let you The 2 kids who pass to pass away who drowned that rallies. Do we go to you guys? Go and spent the pond athletes, these get these kids past what they passed was like the process that we go behind him and spent spot to see if these bonds MAY be in violation. >> Certainly if someone if someone made us aware there was, you know, we need to be there is a concern that the pond was out of compliance or things like that. We would certainly going do an inspection you know, it is a difficult that. In my own experience, I was fortunate that my situation, my child was not attracted to water. In fact, he hated it. But I had the issue, though, that my child was attracted to trains. So it's a difficult issue. But but we do if there is a concern, I think we're happy to work with the all. If you have a concern about a particular pond, please let us know. We want to be a good partner with the city and we're certainly happy to take a look on any Ponce that you might have a concern about. We're happy to work with the Get an inspection team out to look at whether there's any concerns. >> Absolutely. Thank you. I appreciate that. One of things I think it's good for this committee, it's the fine out over the last 3 years. How many ponds? I've been out of compliance and I'm not sure if it is. I know you say you get a lot of permits yearly. You know, I'm pretty sure is no rest upon us right now that out of compliance. And if the the compliance. Residents know, you know, do the community know, you know, what is the H.O.A.? Don't want to and I guess I'm not sure of the H.O.A. Have a responsibility to let the residents know. But >> you know. >> What are we doing? You know, know you say you're working with these ponds and is a to get him back in compliance. But I do think that residents need to know that, you know, potentially danger. You know, hey, stay away from these ponds. So. >> Thank you. If you can. Biden is It's few weeks. If you could get bat, what least? Conveyed information over to Tyler? Andrea about. All up on it. That's been out of compliance like it's the last 2 years. Mean, in Ponds. But as you know, give us a a ballpark ballpark figure. It turns up on that side of curious to know, you know, yearly how many Ponds is not a violation. Yeah. So we'll do our best to have to see what we can dig up for. You. >> Okay. All right. Thank you. I really my heart. Go out to you. We've done our best to come up with solution like youth, a slide. He's not a trend in the water, but, you know, we go try to do our best to come up with a solution. >> Yeah, no, I appreciate all the work that you do. Thank you. All right. >> well, I think I question. COUNCILMAN That. >> All right. Focusing on the complaint process, he said that someone has to file a complaint. So is that just email to the water management district or is there a formal complaint form? Is there a site? How does someone access >> of 4 some type of document too soon, too. >> The water the management district judge. >> Sure, we we received inquiries by phone. We get them by email and our website has jr wmd dot com there's pass to get into contact with our various service centers. We have a service center here in Jacksonville off of a Meadows. If they go to that, there's a number and an email they can reach out to us and we will certainly take a look and get folks out right away to look at any concerns. >> Okay. So through the 2. So what you're saying is that there isn't a formal process is just someone can send an email to one of the service into or to the water management district and then you will begin a process of investigating. >> So how how often do that you how often are ponds inspected? >> So we focus our inspection at the time. It can be at any time in the Sometimes it can be during will go out during construction and then typically at the end of construction will get an has built engineer signs and seals that the project has been Inc constructed in accordance with the permitted plans. So that would be a potential trigger point. There. We also when there is a transfer from a developer to it could be a property owners association for commercial. We're developer to a homeowners association. Those transfers will absolutely trigger an inspection by us because we want in that case, we want to make absolutely sure that's what what is being turned over to that association from the developer is fully in compliance because you don't you don't want to turnover. It's something that's out of compliance to an H.O.A. So we make sure that we get that comment is fully compliant because before that turnover occurs. So that's a big So those would be the main the main points would be, I think, as bill would be an opportunity, but also that that big moment typically when the developer is stepping back from a prof project and you're transferring it to association. We absolutely want to make sure that we're giving them something that's in good working order. Thank you for that. And threw the chair. You gave us an example an actual >> to way and they had their Pont 2. Compliance. You said that they had about $10,000 in restorative work that needed to be done to their pond. Does the distric? >> Charge any fees? Are there any any funds associated with violations? We there could be, but in cases where we're working with an H.O.A., our goal is not to find them. They need that money to repair the pond. >> And the way that we make sure that H.O.A. Has money to repair and maintain the system. As I mentioned earlier, we look at the deed restrictions and the articles of incorporation those documents will have language in them and it's in our rule that the association will use and collect enough money to maintain the system. So that's how we know during the permit review process that we're going to have an entity that has the financial legal and administrative cape capacity to carry manage the system in the future for the most part, think they do. I mean, they they get it and they they do it. So, but that's the kind of the check and balances. We make sure that they have the power to do it. And then again at that transfer poor permit point from developer. The H.O.A. That is a big moment to make sure that everything is in good working order. Thank you for that. So just one last question to you. Have you encountered a situation? Anyone who's on on the district working with the district. What a district management. >> Have you encountered a situation where there's a two-way? There is a egregious violations and they have not been able to rectify issues. Its to the chair. >> Our biggest honestly challenge with a 2 ways is in our H.O.A. Disputes. >> Where You might one group. He thinks the solution is accent. Another is why. And we kind of have to say we need it fixed. And so I think the biggest Ray Bloch has been at most of them comply right away. Honestly, it's just they get a We'll fix that. The ones where they there's been some somebody lost the election and somebody one or, you know, just some of turtles back not this and the related to >> some internal trauma is honestly one of our biggest challenges. >> Thank you for that. Thank you. Chair. COUNCILMAN Recognized. >> Thank you as chair. I just want to thank the Saint Johns, Water management and, know, to prove for y'all come an insurer and we'll listen. You are always a proactive in waterways and in the Northeast for regional Council air appreciate everything else too. And I will say to the committee that under the community. Saint Johns, Water Management, if you see of all, think that there's a violation. They have an open door. Cinnamon an email. You will get a a response some type of inspection. So the they are a very on top of what they do. I will say that about their They take. They're a scope. Serious. And so that they stay on top of what's was needed to be done. And, you know, commend them for that. They're there get quite a big challenge with with this development as we got going on and as much wetlands, the that they're trying to preserve. So that's always a challenge. But the the banks, the slopes and all that. I think if anything changes right to be some type of state legislation that would have to be enacted Saint, not saying that it can't be done, but I think that's where that's going fall out fall at. But just want to thank you all for being here today. Thank you, sir. Thank you so much for coming out. I object. Good afternoon. And bunch of Duval County experienced a have Steve Long come up. Talk about see o j. >> Manus apartment process. Steve, Go ahead well. Steve Long public works. I just went for the slide to be updated I've got a clear, okay. I'm sorry about that. All right. Steve Long public works which seemed front of you. And this is just a very short presentation about the way the city of Jacksonville kind does our permitting for ponds. >> We follow the same technical requirements is the water Management District you've heard are talking about pond to sign his 25 year. 24 hour Cs Storms. We also allow 100 year rational storm. But, you know, basically the same thing when you look at the city of Jacksonville hour, Pon design criteria is contained within our land development procedures. Manuals. And what you'll see on hears and land development procedures. Manual volume 2. That's our actual design guidelines. Volume 3 is our standard design. Details. These documents are available to anybody and they're on the city of Jacksonville's website at Jacksonville about Gov. The next one is and I'm not going to go through design as far as for like, you know, how much treatment you have to provide and what amount of time we're not going to do is this slide shows the actual geometry requirements of a pond. And when I want to point out is if you look at Adam number one, when you get down there and it talks about side s# # . Basically it's a sign s# # should not be steeper than 4 to one and she will be used on all manmade basins were natural basins are existing. The criteria will be set on individual basis. Science lopes steeper than 4 to one MAY be approved by the city engineer. Provided permanent bank stabilization and fencing. Constructed. The one thing I'll point out is, as you heard from Order Management District 8, they require fencing, but they can also allow things like she was talking about when she said I your hedges vegetation, that sort of thing for the city, its fences. It's not it's not other means or method. So be it be fencing. And our fencing requirement as minimum 4 feet tall. Ok? Our next slide need these next 4 slides are basically just the these are actual standard details at a land development procedures manual. This first, this first image you'll see we call this case one and this is up on that would be submitted to us that meets all the requirements and does not have a need for a fence. You see it's got a 4 to one side s# # or flat or it can be flatter and doesn't need benefits steeper than it would need a fence. But in this case, there's there's no need for fans because it's 41 are flatter. And this is our standard pond. And this is what we strive for with all of our project. All right. Our next criteria is for case to in case 3 ponds. The image at the top is our case to pond. And you'll see in that you'll a berm which is kind of cross hatched. It's a little bit above natural ground level. And that's just because we have a requirement for a minimum, a one foot of free board. And so that one for the free Board for it to be contained within the pond. You have to actually do a comes above the natural ground elevation. But if you look at the second image, the bottom one for the case, 3, when you look at it, you'll see that one's a little bit different. And so you'll see there's a note on there. This one if greater than 3 foot depth, a four-foot fence was self locking gate must be provided. So in this case from where it a vertical on wall, you'll see this with the tension pond. There's a vertical wall. If it's greater than 3 feet deep, then you have to provide a fence. And then in addition to that, you'll also see a note that when you when you look at it than normal water level, it's one foot minimum free board required. There's also a note that if you are less than 3 feet, you MAY still be required to have a fence if your normal water level is more than one foot deep and you'll see that kind of on the bottom of it. It one foot Max without fans. So if you have a deeper pool of water, then one feet and this type of situation, you would still need a fence. All right. This this next slide is our case for a slide and hear what you'll see is you'll see there's a dashed line 41 s# # and then you'll see there's a solid line shows a 2 to one s# # . And so on this case, since the 2 to one s# # is steeper than 4 to one. You'll see there's shown on the actual image and you'll see that this is a dry detention pond and you'll see if less than 2 feet deep. No fence is required because that total depth, but it's greater than 2 feet and steeper than 4 to one side slopes. Then they would have to construct a fence. And so we require that if there's anything that steeper than 4 to one, even if it is a a drop on deeper than 2 feet. And then our final slide. This is again for drop a detention pond. In this case, we have vertical walls and you'll see these, you know, places where I've seen this type of pond design he's been some of the fast food restaurant is some of the smaller sites where you have to have a pond and they are just they are limited severely by their their land availability that you'll see here with those sides, you know, words its walled on both sides. There's a requirement for fans to be constructed all the way around. It. One of the other things you have when you have something that wall them, both sides are all the way around. You'll see there's also a note on there that access steps, a ladder or ramp has to be provided. So if somebody was to still get in, they have a way to get out that we don't go in and have no way to get out. So with that said, you'll see that basically for the city of Jacksonville. 41. Are flat or we do not require fencing, power or anything. A steeper than 4 to one. We do have that fencing requirement and that's that's shown and all of our land development procedures manuals city on on city projects as well as on projects done by developers and the private community. Thank for that presentation council and you're recognized. Thank you, chair you. When you show this design and you talked about fast food restaurants immediately, my mind went to. >> Waffle House because I I'm a connoisseur waffle houses and I'm taking pictures when I give to those. Well, well, as as and I've seen, I have not noticed a ladder or any steps, but I noticed the pumping station, but most of them and that they're fenced and that they are typically dry. MR. Onto the chair. These types of designs don't seem to be the issue. >> The issue >> is the types of ponds where obviously there's no fencing. They're in proximity to the sidewalk and they are easily accessed by anyone, not just children. Does anyone so? What determines the type of retention detention pond development uses. And I don't know. That's a question for you. Ms parole. Once again. The pond that if it's that I see that are along like major interstates like to 95 businesses such as Burger keying in Waffle House. We don't have any reported deaths with those particular pond, but it's the ones that are in proximity to. Multifamily developments, single-family homes that are designed to be attractive. Designed to be like what if features, and they're attracting children and children with autism. I don't know. Am I don't know if you know how to answer this question, but what determines the type of design right? >> I I can give it a try. As for for wet versus dry. You know, when you're looking at that, the major factors are your soul conditions in your water table elevations. So in Jacksonville, we have very, very few dry ponds. We have very few locations that would even qualify to have dry ponds based on those 2 criteria. As far as for, you know, ponds being near sidewalks and that sort of thing aside, what being near a pond has no effect on whether it would need a fence or whether we need some sort of buffer, many locations throughout the city. Actually, they try to make the ponds attractive. They actually put walk pass around them. They encourage their residents to go to him. Think about like if you go down to Saint Augustine, they've got that large on. That's just west of the city that they have to paths and trails that go right next to it. There's no fencing. It's meant to be an amenity, not something you look over a fence ad so it would not have any effect with the sidewalk. Been next to it were signed Ball could potentially come into play for offense would be sometimes if you have a a pipe going into the into the pond and there's of offense over the pipe and then when you get to where that pond discharges, there's a head wall then head wall has a drop-off over certain distance. Then they would actually have to fence off that that had wall. And so you might see where where the sidewalk crosses over that you MAY see a fence across the head wall, but that would only be for, you know, 10, 15, 20 feet type of fence requirement. And then it would be open again because the sidewalk within s# # that, you know, that the slopes will go down towards the pond, so wouldn't be fenced except where you had a drop-off type of situation. >> Thank you for that. I know this is where in the weeds here with But it's critical because we have. Detention, retention ponds that have fences. We don't. Most kids aren't going to pull up a latch. Go into that thence to try to get into touch, feel the water. But as those that are readily accessible and within proximity to single-family developments and multifamily developments that aren't that a part of the issue. Thank you. I mean, I read about this and I appreciate you explaining more about the design features. Thank You're welcome. >> Thank you, MR. Presentation. I'm asking same questions that I asked Times management be answer. The question is what I would like to see. These the city ponds get inspected. Do we have any Ponts des? Alex. Apply if a violation. If so, how often as well, the last 2 to 3 years. So if you could report today could be in a couple of weeks. Just get a Elissa city pass by now. Let us know how to dance. But it did. I guess what causes the violation? Yeah. Last 2 or 3 years of work for us right? >> And I can provide you that information. Now the Lightning too, for the city. We have a permit through dp National Pollution discharge elimination. System permit for more in pd e s and as a part of that permit, we have a requirement. We have to inspect all of our ponds every 3 years. So we do an inspection, a minimum of every 3 years. We on most of our ponds because of the routine maintenance we do. We do a lot of our inspections. Do our maintenance forces. So we actually do inspections. Typically even more frequent in the 3 years. But at the long period of time, no more than 3 years. And as far as for our ponds being out of compliance, we don't have any out of compliance. If we find an issue based on being a pond, we get out and we address it as quickly as we can either through our maintenance group threw out right away and stormwater maintenance or it's a more, it's a larger issue that were to be found where we might need designed and it would go through our engineering division. But anything like that, we would actually address, you know, quickly. >> Is this to public works? Who has spent month? Yes, or public works. The complaint process if someone of the same Saint John's someone wanted to make a complaint, one of the city ponds, what is that process? >> any number of things phone calls a 6, city, they can go through and the website Jacksonville dot Gov. There's a complaint system which is, you know, the the the Mind System, which is basically 6, city. They put it in like that. We get it and it would go to our right Wayne stormwater maintenance division and they would go out and they inspect whatever issue was called in. So if somebody called in and said or, you know, somebody called or emailed or went into the I my system and said there's a pond out here with a large washout. One of our road supervisors, one of I'm sorry when one of our project supervisors and right away, we visit the pond, walked up on find what's found. We would plan to repair and get it done. >> Thank you so much. I really appreciate is presentation. COUNCILWOMAN Glenmary recognized. Thank you to the chair. MR. Long. >> How many? >> How many inspectors do we have? They The person to inspect ponds. I'd inspected to Ponder day. Just a part of public works and they have the knowledge to inspect the pond. The latter. So so their public works. Employees that have knowledge of what we require honor inspections for our permit requirements. >> And they're out inspecting it. So their position isn't necessarily called inspector, but they're out inspecting or i thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. All >> chair to the chair and the U.S. Chances we have time for just to come up. Yeah, absolutely. I want love and that sort overall from do so that and come up and then we have public comments. Issue for a lot of green cards. So commission, we recognize many. Good afternoon. Thank you for ever hear Jenn overall that its line. >> Jackson Sheriff's Office dive team have been a sergeant on the dive team since 2014. Our primary mission is the dive teams to search for any evidence which manager water, whether that be a person gun drugs, cars. We training weekly on the search for missing objects. We or tear one team are responsible for primarily Duval County voters spawned to the 19 northeastern Florida and southeastern Georgia counties. We've gone as far as searching for the mayor Chiefland and the Suwannee River to searching for the deputy in Putnam County to searching for most recently. The 3 missing are the 2 children. The drowned in the German town yesterday. So we recently recovered numerous people who are under water. So I'm they both any questions about what we do. We're primarily a post-mortem unit, the sheriff's office or 14 person unit or on call. 24 7, 3, 65. MR. Secondary assignment and all of us are police officers. But our primary responsibility is to the other. You know, it's patrol sergeant. Some signs of the patrol division, the tenants of Traffic Lieutenant. So he's the science of traffic. >> All right. Thanks for council McLemore. You're recognized. >> Thank you. Chair. Thank you. Sergeant of Rafah being here. Are there any in your experience in diving in detention, in detention, pond? Are there any changes that you would like to see in design that perhaps hinder your recovery efforts? >> Foodshare no, ma'am. There's not really changes that I would see that with him to hinder our recovery. We train for everything. If there's gates around the so the perimeter of the pond, we have ways of going around over through them. We we pretty much there's not much that we can. Enders for instance, a Philips Highway. There's the Wawa. There's random like one of the. Upon. So you're talking about at the Waffle House straight drop. We've had people that weren't paying attention back into those m