Transportation, Energy & Utilities Committee

>> It's not all one. We will call to order the. Transportation Energy and Utilities Committee for Wednesday, NOVEMBER 4th. We'll begin with introduction from my left. >> Even with council research. >> Harlow shall Office of General counsel. >> Ed Whelan Ski Council auditors office. Good morning on a holder at large >> Good morning. I think that Carlucci at large group for Kevin Maher City Council district, one. Is it a good morning in police? The district Good morning. Original. Get enjoy a district 8. >> Thank Council member Vice Pittman, the >> has been excused and we will follow the gender. Will take up item to first then item 3 and item 4. Item. One will be explain when we get to that item. If you turn to agenda page number 2. Bill Twenty-twenty 6, 0, 7, 7, 9, couldn't get a motion for the. Any discussion. Got pretty quiet. Let's open the ballot and vote. We do have a quorum correctness shell to be able to vote 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, We open the ballot. >> 5 yeas, 0 nays. >> action, you've approved 2026, 0, 7, 7, 9, like to welcome Councilmember Arias. Turn to page 3 item a. 2026, 0, 7, 9, 9, Can I get a motion for the best? Any discussion? Ballot and record the vote. >> 6 yeas, 0 nays. >> By your action, you've approved 2026, 0, 7, 9, 9, Item. Number 4 on the agenda, 2026, 0, 8, 0, 1, I open the public hearing. Do we have any cards? This is Miller. It's your sorry. I didn't get single note up there. Ms Palou. So No other. No. The cards for 20 26, 0, 8, 0, 1, And close the public hearing is there. Can I get a motion on the bill? The auditor has some concerns. And I hear what the auditor concerns are. >> To chair the during our review process, we noted that the 2 adjacent properties owned by the applicant to the closure area had outstanding tax bills for 2025, we communicated that to real estate. They went ahead and took a look at the applicants. A total property holdings within the county and found that there was a substantial sum that was associated with back taxes. That number communicated to us was 114,000 $585. >> Go ahead, MISTER Carlucci. Thank you, MR. If this bill were to pass to step. Release him from the obligations on. The taxes that he owes. Chair to COUNCILMAN >> Carlucci by code, the city cannot convey the property while he has outstanding taxes. So these tax liabilities would need to be addressed before the city can convey the property to him. >> Does that put us in the posture? Perhaps MISS Shell? That. We should or should not or should we be concerned about passing this legislation is this a red flag on passing this legislation? >> The chair to Councilmember I think the auditor's offices and, you express their concern. And I think the concern is also like these are amounts due this city now on. And when they resolve these, you know, the next tax bill will be coming soon in. Are we going to be a perpetual state of them owing money and then will never actually beacon made. It'll just be kind of hanging out there. Thank you. That's on need to. >> I'm support the bill I don't want us passing something. Then week and then it's kind of in our Bailey week, so to speak. And there's the money. And part of our problem. I'm not do I think the problem along to him when her whoever and then when paid then he conveyed a problem. Then it transfers problem free, but it should not be flow through us with the problem Suddenly part of our becomes part of our problem. So like I don't like my customers making their emergency. I want see or their problem. My problem. And this is a problem that covered problem by other contract. A Michael support. This. Thank you, MISTER Carlucci for expressing concerns because at first blush. >> If this is approved without some some way getting this past due or a commitment. To getting this past due amount to remediated. It can be perceived as rewarding bad behavior is so let me go to MISS Before any other thoughts. >> Thank you, chair. Actually this one here with 100 or Ms Hunter. >> Good morning. Renee Hunter public works real estate. Thank you for recognizing me. As the auditor had explained to when we initially went through this process, the applicant actually owns about 7,000. >> Upwards of 7,000 properties in the city. So we had reached out to the tax collector's office to see what the outstanding amounts were owed and the provided us with documentation showing that they were outstanding on anything. But as this bill went through the legislative process, the auditor's office. Found some outstanding taxes were owed. So I had a different staff member. My last staff member. It's no longer with my division. I had reassigned and she did a deep dive and she found that property taxes on 40 properties. So in that was $112,000. And then she also looked into leans and that was another $24,000. And that was just what we were able to uncover. So our total amount was about $138,000 and obviously sometimes they accrued daily weekly. So we don't have the most current information just what was publicly facing on the city Web site at the time. So we contacted the applicant and explain to them that we would be seeking a deferral because this was really something i the division's internal processes to get taken care of before it even reaches the Mayor's Budget Review Committee. So I explained to them that I was going to be seeking a deferral until these were satisfied. They Wanted to proceed and just wanted the ability for the bill to go through and then just haven't paid prior to recording of the ordinance, which would make the closure effective. And I explain to them if they wanted to appeal to this committee. They're welcome to so I wouldn't officially asked for deferral on the agenda, but I'd give them the opportunity to be heard. I was told they were going to be here today. I'm not quite sure while they're not. But so the real estate divisions position is kind of just as I think some of you are opining, too to for the bill. Until they make payment. Otherwise, if you all are inclined to proceed, I think we as the ogc in the auditors were explaining. Think we want some language in there to explain that at the time of recording, they should be free and clear of all liens and all taxes because if this continues to go on, there could be additional taxes and liens that accrue beyond what we're aware of today. Thank you. Hunter, pollution. Thank Chair threw that into the body. I mean, I think I would move for a deferral. >> happy. Are you guys the applicant? Happy to hear from you in a moment. But I that language sounds good to however, I don't like the idea that someone comes to before something is settled if the applicant to come up come forward and identify yourself. Mrna MARCH Air. Yes, ma'am, I think would be prudent to reopen the public hearing at this time to take testimony from the applicant. >> Thank you, Michelle. Are the public hearing on 2026, 0, 8, 0, one is reopened. >> I able to speak the applicant? Richard Briggs Jackson homes. I'm able to speak now over. Those are going yeah. Richard Briggs addresses for 5, 5, 0, Augustine Road. Actual Florida, 3, 2, 2, 0, 7, I think most people that know who I am alive. Paid of substantial amount of taxes to the city of Jacksonville through property taxes. >> In the millions of dollars and yes, I was brought to my attention last week about some taxes that were not paid. And just on the liens real quick, most of those lanes are probably properties that I purchased the had. The liens are in place and which we've applied for, which guys have a new process. But applied for the liens to be waived up improvements to the property. So any liens against property, usually ones that we inherited when we purchase the properties we buy a lot of properties Come with inherited issues, including a previous liens and and what have you. So we were very good about cleaning them up because of this substantial amount of properties we do own. There are properties that to slip through the cracks and do not get paid on time. But our taxes are paid regularly regularly on the time this actually was brought to my attention last week in we had the intention of getting paid. And 41 of our county people in our department had family death and it was not resolved that I can promise you by the time I get to my office today, those taxes that you're referring to will be paid funding is not an issue. My company is very seller when it comes to funding. I encourage you to stipulate in approval, but proof of receipt that I'll be glad to make sure that consent to whoever needs to get the proof. Those will be paid. >> Thank you, Briggs. Let me go to the Start with MISS A gap he's been in the 2. Would it and let me ask, let just just a second, Sorry. It's the Gaffney. Apologize about Trying to get clarity. So let let me get a great understanding what we vote also right now, which is vote on the right away, correct. >> The closure, the closure. So I I real estate department brought it to attention that MR. Bray is applicant is behind taxes. I guess my my Tennessee. Can we put some type of provision? Type of clothes on this legislation before recorded. They we make sure you pay taxes. I'm just not sure what a you know, I would like move forward today. Vote on it. It's some type of clothes and this legislation that before us record it that he pays taxes. So either way it's to save you notice it. All right. Thank you. Ecology. There's a if there's an amendment like that, I can live with that. >> a to give the gentleman I understand story now. And I believe that he'll make good on getting the taxes paid. A deferral gives him a chance to get the taxes paid comes back in 2 weeks. I'm all in things like this happen. So I get us are not doing anything prove myself over the years. I've yes, sir. I killed over 2 and a half billion dollars worth real estate in Jacksonville. I mean, >> I'm not a lot is a time prove. What I'm trying to do is say I understand I didn't who property this was. Yes, sir. And I was compelled by year. Your testimony is I'm saying. So so I understand that. And that compels me to not want to vote. No, but to give a chance for this to be cleared officer and sounds like it could be cleared up in a couple of a deferral or and amendment that sauce us not. Having conveyed until he's paid. I can support Look, I want to help you achieve your goals in applicants and all that I just don't want us to take on something that is not pay. That's, of course think you can see my point. That 100% so 30 tariffs or that's how feel at this point. >> The chair will entertain an amendment. But first, let's go to MISTER Areas. >> All right. Thank you. I means, you know, we're all human beings happened to me. We all know that, you know, things that things happen. But the thing about it is the fact that we are here in committee and next week we have full council. You gotta take care of it today or this week or next week. So we could all change our mind by next week. And we need to I don't think we need to for anything. I think we should approve this today. I said life happens I'll take his word and that by next week Tuesday night, it hasn't paid. Then we'll talk about different, you know, options. But I've been doing some research on you and what you've done for Jax will. Thank you. And I'll be supporting this today. Just please take care of by next week. Thank years. >> thank you. MR. Breaks Ms Hunter, would you come to the Please? Podium. He's offered language of stipulation. There's a feeling of amendment up here. What are your thoughts? To the >> And to the committee, really 100 public works. Real estate. Our position is pretty firm that this should not have you gotten this far without those outstanding taxes or lanes being paid. Obviously, you know. This committee has the final say, and I think it's fair to say that as long as everything is paid prior to recording, if that is the pleasure of this committee. But we have some strict guidelines when it comes to outstanding taxes and lanes before we even will process an application even reaches my desk. That should have been taking care So I want to support our internal procedures so that's where I stand. But I think, you know, this is for your consideration. >> Thank MISS Opelousas. Thank you. To the body. I mean, I tend to agree with staff that fields of the procedures. Predicts pretty sacrosanct. I really don't want to kind of go beyond that to the to the applicant is a two-week deferral really going to be because that really going work or to go. It's a two-week deferral really going to be detrimental to the developed. Know it's been going on for a while as far as trying to get this done. We've had some issues with some other policies that delayed this substantially. I mean, >> anything they can do would be gratefully You appreciate is I said, but I might get to the office within hours going to be paid. So I mean, you guys do what you need to do. But I think again, the evidence of my performance over the last 25 30 years has been pretty solid. You guys do what you need just trust behind it. Running a company that has, you know, 60 80 employees. We have our own procedures. But sometimes as long as they make sense and some his lungs, there's accountability there. I mean. If expect if you're going to pay before before Tuesday night, it will be paid today 100%. You can stimulation is not paid today. Anderson, I'm fine with language. I believe that council gap is probably going to offer. I would I want to see if we know the public understood that. I Michelle, you've been indications are. >> Threw the chair to the committee. You MAY wish to ask the owner if he plans to pay the liens as well. Because I heard him say that he was talking about lean reduction with the city and that's a process that takes time and requires execution agreements. And I don't think could be completed by Tuesday even within 2 Just something for all to consider. >> addressed Yes places. The city city has a lien reduction program looking to buy a piece of property. We do a title search with that title. Search brings up properties that have leans anywhere from $1000 to as much as 150,000 allied one of the U.S. Hard. I had one the other day that had like over a million dollars in daily for daily finds the city. It a science to it. Those we don't ever get involved But when we buy the property is based on the policy that the city of Jackson come up with. That allows for a lien reductions long. You spend a certain amount of money on the property. The city will reduce it now used to be that ply for that to make sure it was approved. Now, the city's change that recently to where you buy the property with the you get the improvements done, then you send it all the documentation of this improvement being done. There's no other way to waive the the Lean without building a house, which is what we do. So, you know, for me to buy a property, have to pay liens that there's a program in place already that is approved by the City Council. Really under under hands. You know what the whole process was. That means everybody out there have to pay for the leads and they didn't think they had to pay for that was going to approved for a a reduction or complete waiver. So I kind of disagree without an apology, trying to just agree with Carla. Thank you, MR. Carlucci. I want to hear from real estate again, if I could. >> Hunter. MISS Hunter, the policy that you're talking about, lewd the lanes as well been cleared. Yes, sir. Okay. It's in the code as well. Okay. These are to be satisfied prior to conveyance of property insurance. >> It is it possible that that believes could be satisfied. Within 2 weeks or a month. >> Through the Councilmember Carlucci, I would have to defer to code compliance on that. I'm not really familiar that process because sounds like it might take more than 2 weeks. I think that we need to be working in compliance with real estate. I think if not, we're putting. Hunter in a bad spot. I want to help the gentleman who's trying to work its way through this and he's going to work its way through it. I couldn't 2 weeks might done in a month. There's just something about. Approving this. The slain still on it. That's against the policy of the other real estate division. I don't think that's a good place for us to be as a committee. That's just how feel about it. I'm not trying to be punitive. I'm just trying. To follow what our process is. And we have the head of our real estate department front of us. That's just where I'm at. I'm not ready to vote on this. I'm not ready to vote against it. I'd like to see stay on our agenda until such time that the lanes are cleared everything is is ready to go. It has the approval of the real State Department, MR. Chair. That's that's just how feel about that's we're on that. Thank you, MR. Carluccio go to Holder. >> Thank you. Threw the chair. I would be in support of a I think a couple things as it relates to the property taxes while I appreciate the years and the dollar amount, the investment that put into this city. I think it sets precedent that we make exceptions for those who can maybe pay that amount in an hour and there MAY be other folks who come up need a day or 2. So we want remain as consistent as possible. Secondly, I think as it relates to the liens and they take you in you acquire properties is buyer beware. See a subject to that in the time period that it takes and it sounds like doing something different today. We'll be violating the ordinance code and lg seeing it as you can tell me if I'm wrong on that and I don't want this committee to take that passion. So I don't think we should completely voted down. Hearing the offer of an amendment or some additional language or conditions sounds good. But I do think it's just overall setting a bat PRESIDENT Is going against what public works says it's presenting. And as you mentioned, sir, you've already been delayed in the Another 2 weeks just to get this right is something that I would definitely support. So I hope that move to defy rather than just trying to expedite this prematurely. Thank MISS You're off the areas. >> know, the other guy. I heard the illini's was government. My apologies. Charities. All I do question for Ms, Hunter, if you don't mind, I'm looking here at the the otters concern and like it's 114,005. 85 is that only property taxes on to that song also include means I know you mentioned that, but just want to clarify that. >> MR. Through the chair to councilmember areas. That's just the property taxes that we were able to find. Perfect. We also located another $24,000 in liens. Perfect. Okay. So. >> While I hear holder and everybody's concerns, what's I here today is only the property taxes we're not talking about means so while there is a process to respect, I think we need to focus on the $114,000. Property taxes and that the gentleman says he could pay out today, which is what's at hand here today. I think we should just vote on that now. Regard ing that means portion of it 100. So whenever somebody buys a property and the of trying to have believes removed, can they still look at the process that going through now and then get bunnies removed at a later date. Want to how the homes are built. Is that normally how it works? >> Threw the chair councilmember areas as far as seeking a closure requests. They all need to be satisfied before it reaches my desk leans and property taxes. Yes okay. And then how for this for the process because we're all kind of speculating here on the time frame. Even we differ 2 weeks. Is that even enough time for your office to get this completed? Through this year to councilmember areas, Wiens are satisfied through code compliance. So I'm not sure with that time frame is but we verify it online to show that all the lanes have been satisfied in years of doing this. How long on average does it take 30, 60, 90 days 120 days? If you the shirt a counselor areas. I really haven't had any involvement. Satisfyingly ins. I couldn't even tell you, unfortunately. But >> I can reach out to code compliance and find out from them. >> I thank you for that. So that's my concern. Right now. We're talking about deferring it for 2 weeks and then were here to again and the gentleman has try to satisfy. But code compliance hasn't satisfied yet. We could be here 2 months, 3 months. I think if we're talking about property taxes right now and he's willing to put out today. Take its word. And then by Tuesday night it's not pay. Then you know what young chopping block and when it comes to the portion of it. Who knows how long they're going to take. We don't have that answer today. So I don't want to defer for 2 weeks and then deferred again for 2 weeks and then 2 more weeks. So that's kind of where I stand today. I wanted to support it if he's willing to pay to one 14 today. And by next Tuesday, we he's satisfied and we move forward. Thank Thank you. >> MR. Get let me go to Michelle first. >> I just want to make it clear through the chair to the committee that the real estate division cannot convey this property to a person who was delinquent any city liens or taxes. So all of that has to be resolved before they can effectuate this conveyance. Thank you. >> MISTER Gaffney and will through the q one more time and then I'm going to close the public hearing. And then I'm probably going to exercise the power of the chair on this. >> Thank you to I'll be brief. I think we a few is we're not talking about cabana property. We talk about clothes and 8th made it. So it's 2 different things. And are we talking about leave? So right now about. Closing evening. It which is additional 14, the liens and I guess the property taxes on The district's current. >> that here to Councilmember Gaffney. I don't I don't know where those property taxes owed are in the various properties, ok? So me turn a close up. So >> are we not talking about give and the property? I think the language that I had earlier that we won't to property. If the leaving the property that this is not we're not talking about cabana property. We're talking about closing closing this closure. This easement. That's the only thing we voting on today. He can move forward. Evidence of the project the closed easement not give and the property we get into 2 missed up. Maybe I'm getting the But I think that's what interpret it. If you don't mind that. >> Threw the chair to Councilmember Gaffney. I'll defer to run 100 to explain this process but closure of the right away. And then it gives the property. It conveys that to the owner. >> So, getting care as they cite your food a to Michelle so we can't do one lot gotten. So if we did a close to right away, automatically convert conveys the property to the owner. >> The chair to Councilmember Gaffney. Yes, essentially. >> Because I would I was thinking we could do well with death. I think I can. We do. Can we vote on the closure to right away? What outcome? Van, a property. That's why was My? And that's what I was thinking. Debate. Some type of language, ok, closed the right away. We've been some type of language and the pay is property of leave. Elvir. It's not give a it is not recorded and to everything is finalized. That's what I initially said. So the language I was a couple polls. That's Figure this could one common. And yes, >> again. The property on property. >> purchased with the lanes very well aware the liens being on the property because the city program. >> These early and that will not go away for you know, in 2 weeks or 3 months or 6 months, we're in the process of getting building permits on these properties and build the houses. Once the houses are completed and then we provide receipts to the city of Jacksonville of all the money that we spent as long as it's a the ratio of dollar to dollar, what they required to have dealings way. That's when they wave the liens. So now I'm being put in a spot to where pay these liens that we were aware of a program to get a road closed. To satisfy a city program that really undermines another program that I was under the impression that. Was a program that fit whatever bill we've been finding out about. The taxes by the weather is due until last week we played other taxes to get the bill introduced about closing the road a month ago. And we pay whatever taxes that was like one or 2 taxes that were paid, I think on the property. But taxes are going to pay the liens of you're telling me than 2 weeks. We have to come back and get an approval. The leaves are getting paid about pain. $24,000 for a program that. Is in place abiding by those rules for the city to get those weighed on other properties, properties that the the road a budding up to. There are back taxes. There are no liens against that property. There. And I think it's unfair then being asked to pay leans on a program that I'm participating in that is already approved by the city. >> Thank you. MR. Carlucci. One more time. >> Up to MISS Hunter. If I could. This Hunter r the lanes transferable to this gentleman. >> Threw the chair Councilmember Carlucci. I'm not quite sure what you mean. >> he says the lane for somebody else's problem he so he should have to is what I'm hearing. I think. Well, at the bottom line, the co the lanes. >> Threw the chair to Councilmember Carlucci. Yes, they're tied to the properties. Okay? Because he owns the properties. The lanes are now tied to a case responsibility. So he owes the lanes. As property taxes go back to his office today. I'm sure pay the property taxes and wipe the slate clean. He doesn't believe the loans he owes the lanes. I don't like making this comparison school say their times when I am a mediator between my company, my customer. My customer believes that they don't have to do something. My company says, yes, you did. And so my heart wants to say welcome company. They should have to do that because because of this that the other and I'm advocating for my customer. My as well. But this is the company's policy. Well, at the other day, I have to. Communicate the company's policy. And in this case. I want to help the settlement. But the city has a policy. And I have to we have to represent that policy, too. R r constituents and it's not always easy to do But if we if we don't enforce the policy here, then who else do we do enforce the policy for? And so it's a slippery s# # . Body that comes to me with the problem. I swing at every problem that comes by way. I swing the bat and everyone I don't ever let a problem. Come over the plate. Not swing at it. I swing in everyone and I try to hit it. But I never strong arm a city department head. Or a city employee who is just doing their job. It's wrong. It's not ethical and if this gentleman was in my place, I'm pretty sure he would be saying the same thing. Thank you, MISTER Carlucci. That's most we rent out through. Thank MR. >> Thank you a quick question for clarification. Michelle, you moments ago you said the property cannot be conveyed the most. The means and fines are satisfied. Are you saying that even if we pass this bill out even in the past on council night, we still need to satisfy the liens before properties conveyed. Are you saying that our action allows for the means to be removed? Threw the chair to councilmember >> I would defer to MISS Hunter on the order of events because my understanding is once it's recorded that that can Vance occurs, but I'll defer her. Yes, there through the chair, Councilmember and as is written code one. 22.4, 1, 2 current age, all taxes and liens must be satisfied prior to the commands the property. So if this committee wanted to proceed with those things. Still outstanding. I believe they would need the code or at a special condition that leans and taxes must be paid prior to recording of the ordinance. >> Going through the chair to the Do we know what kind of leans necessarily are? Because some of them do have to go to like the magistrate process, correct? Not necessarily that they're not municipal leans and there are other. There's other entities I think in the state of Florida court system that we MAY not have. Yeah, that's a code enforcement question would think that is that we know of are I said do not know Sarah. Do not understood. I mean, by that action I am a little bit concerned. We might want to defer this just in case. MR. Areas. Alright, simple through the chair. Solution and it's possible 100 you don't mind. Coming up here, please. >> The issue is obviously now not just property taxes, but also the means. We're not sure we're going to mean they are. We don't know how long it's going to take to get them resolved from your department because of code enforcement's owes a lot uncertainties right now. Alright, or there's a program in please that any applicant can dispute that means and waive the means to your department. Right? And that's what's happening right now. Now, is there a program in place where and applicant can actually pay those needs right now. Still dispute among get reimbursed. And if so, can he just paid the property taxes in the liens today? Move on. And then you guys reimburse of the money that we could just someone that we everybody satisfied. You guys are satisfied in liens are be able to to be able to be removed. You guys paying back in 3, 4, 5, months, 6 months, 2 years. I don't care the system it. There's a program in place. Can we just do that now? >> Threw the chair to councilmember. Area. Sorry, it's long morning, right but I'm not sure if code compliance has a program in place where they can pay them off and then get reimbursed later once they fulfill the obligations of whatever that program is. But from our position, if he pays of all the lanes in all the taxes and were able to verify there's your balance, we would just go ahead and proceed. >> Thank you, MADAM. But I also want make sure that. There's a program in place for him to fight these needs and get and not have to pay them. I want to make sure he can get reimbursed. Obviously we have all of public works here. All right. And I know this is code compliance issue. We're trying to get resolved today. Not the for 2 weeks because in 2 weeks we're going to be talking about the same Tell you right I don't want to go through this for the next 3 going to 2027 because this will go into 2027. Can we just knock it out today? Let him pay it. If he's ok pain, it and then we put it language in here, some sort of amendment resolution. I don't whatever you guys want to call it, that he will get reimbursed He's able to officially the fight these these things. Thank you, MISS Areas. Let's go to Michelle. >> Thank Chair meeting threw the chair to the committee the owner can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he's fighting the leads. I think these are bona fide means he's referring to them is not his because the property they were accrued prior to his purchase. >> But councilmember Holder so eloquently stated, buyer beware. Caveat, Emptor. Or when you purchase a property you do your due diligence and you purchase that. With all the and conferences on the property. So these Arlene's that he owes because he purchased the property municipal code compliance has 2 programs for reduction that he MAY be eligible. He may not. One is interest-only. The other one is for liens greater than $2000. And it's a reduction of both interest and principal based on dollars spent improving the property. So it's a whole program where you you enter into an agreement with municipal code compliance for reduction of those liens. Don't think anybody's the validity of these lanes and through the chair. I don't know if she was responding to my question or that you just give her the q I because I wasn't done. Okay, that's fine. You >> All right. As the >> Thank you to chair to the Be essentially going stay with Michelle just said, I would suggest on behalf of the administration, a deferral as Mets hunter is said on the tax issue and then I can commit the administration working with the applicant over the course of that deferral. >> On. Hammering out at least timeline for. Exploring the lanes. I can't commit to anything one way or another until we get that appropriate departments on board. But what we always have the conversation so that you have more information to make your decision 2 weeks from now, if you choose to do the deferral. >> Thank you, Sir. MISTER Briggs. Just one quick question. I presume you use this lane reduction program, the full. >> Many times probably 50 75 times when I buy property and find out there's a lien against the property. I utilize the program. I do my due diligence. Thank you very much, Mike. Do my due diligence. And when I make a decision to bite a sudden a program that Citi has in place. This what whatever those liens are we're referring to are ones that will get weighed 100% by the city program. If I knew the this is gonna be a stipulation or problem for closing this write-up probably never would have all those properties. And those properties just sat there until someone else with the purchase of them. If they would purchase them and it would have accumulated daily fines and everything getting penalize by a program to close the road to do affordable housing over on the West side. Because of stipulation it's really weird. Thank you. MR. Breaks. >> close public To the committee. We've had a lot of conversation. I've heard a couple of things here and her number one, that there is a significant concern about the back taxes, which the property owner has agreed to get paid in a timely manner because he was not aware of it and also heard a concern about the his ability to participate in the mean reduction program. Unfortunately, because of the synergy of these 2 things, it seems like they almost have to be results simultaneously, which I doubt seriously. That is truth. It's the prerogative of this chair. I'm going to be for this matter until 2 weeks. Pretty sure Missa breaks will pay the taxes today and then I'm pretty sure the administration will get with him to to resolve participate and the lien reduction program. So he doesn't have to bear the burden of that. So this matter has been for. Moving to item. Number one. 2026, 0, 7, 7, 7. I cannot get ration of ex parte. If there's any. Seeing none. I open the public airing. And I will turn to our general counsel Michelle to give us some guidance on this procedure. This is an appeal. I'm Go ahead and sober. Us. France Party also. Yeah, I did. Do. I had a conversation with MR. Miller. >> On this application yesterday. Thank you. So been fun. It Thank you. Chair to the committee. This is an Excuse me, o'clock judicial hearing before you today. This is an appeal of a written decision of the director of the Public Works Department. >> This is a de novo hearing, meaning all information that was considered by the public works Department and the director is for your consideration here today. And they have ability to produce new evidence for you to consider as well. There is my memo to printout of that on at each of your chairs as well as the appeal packet that the applicants submit it in. And page 2 of the memo is the border. The hearing. The chair is already called for active to disclosure ex parte communications. And then we'll proceed in the order listed there on Page 2. Your decision must be based on competent, substantial evidence. In a potential motions are recommendations that you move forward with. This legislation was written in the neutral. Like many of you have seen You see so requires an amendment. You can either amend to deny the appeal. You can amend too grant or gran parte and deny in part you modify the written decision. You can refer the matter back to the public works Department with specific instructions for further action or you can take other action that you deem prudent I'm available for any questions on that. >> Thank you, Open the public hearing. We have missed this act Milla. Would you put 5 minutes on the clock addition know. >> It is very quickly. One housekeeping item. I'm not here on 801, but everybody said that would be coming up again in 2 weeks at election. Coming up in the 13 days since this is Wednesday. So it's one everybody in the audience to understand that 13 thank for the record, it will be taken up at the next meeting. Thank >> When whatever, they didn't quite understand Yes, Pop is rolling. So thank you very much, Miller, 3, 2, 3, 0, Bar in court where he runs the first time. You guys done this before. This is an appeal of a decision by the public works Department. >> Their chapter 6.54 >> these are concerns basically 19 loss on Rocket jet drone in Polk. >> They're near a road called Casselberry. It's these are 19, lots of record. They were created in 1953. The issue is is that there's a program for sidewalk deferrals. Basically when you come in feel a lot, there is a program where you can put a problem, restriction on the property says when the city actually has a plan for sidewalks, you can put the sidewalks in and your deferred and doing at that point, we asked to participate in that program. The public Works Department said no, their reasoning was residential growth, pedestrian safety and connectivity. However, we in the decision there was no residential growth pointed out. There is no pedestrian safety pointed out and there is no connectivity pointing out. >> This is the property we're talking about. Ironically, about 15 homes are built on lots of record in the media surrounding area were no sidewalks are required. There is no sidewalk in the area. The close the sidewalk is actually on the apartment complex on Main Street and part of casselberry, but doesn't connect anywhere. This is sort of the problem with the program. These are the 19 that my client owns were required to do a a the connect to nowhere. This is a ground view of what we're looking at. There are no sidewalks in the area. One of the court and points is that none of these roads are city maintained. These are all privately maintained roads. Part of the issues. You can see that there are drainage ditches. There are trees. There are telephone poles. They would have to be negotiated a great cost in order to install these sidewalks. There's also grass and drainage issues. Again, there are no sidewalks in this area. This is the area. Pokes. This is sort of the north end of the property. Again, there are no sidewalks to connect to an area. Some of the new host the homes in the area. We don't. We're not gonna be building new homes on them. So the sidewalks will literally be on one side of the street and then other areas of the subdivision that has existed since 1953. A lot of sidewalks. This is a view down Castleberry and I'll show the angle from the other side. >> Millikan you Certainly if I can on the Clyde said, I ask you 5 minutes with sufficient. You have up to 10. So if you run over, I'm good. I would like just to reserve any other time for rebuttal. Thank you. Thank >> So this is the view down Casselberry. This is going towards Main Street. So even if we installed the sidewalks, which again, would that end at utility poles and drainage ditches, they wouldn't connect anything. So the people living in these homes going to casselberry within still be walking down the street in order to get the main street. This is the view that dirt road is actually called Space Street. Don't know if this is a theme rocket jet space, but these with the roads are named. There's no sidewalk there either. This is an example of a street nearby where my client was required to put in a sidewalk to know where you can see the utility pole. This is sidewalks installed right in front of the home. We don't believe this increase pedestrian safety. This doesn't improve connectivity. This is Kirk Road. This is unfortunately the result of the program and what we're required to do. This is what we're trying to avoid. One of the things that the city considered again, this is quasi judicial, the City-centre apartments, a law section. Watch of the destination. Is there a sidewalk within 100 feet? No, there isn't. In this case whether this roadway city maintained, no, it's not. City maintained. Are there approve civil plans of their dead ends someone sidewalk designs? We think we qualify for the deferral program. Again, these are prospective prescriptive. There are other factors that can be taken. And this program. The streets are not. City maintains the appeal reports no nearby sidewalk connection. As I just showed you the pictures or identify pedestrian destination. The city written decision identifies no specific connected pedestrian route. You can see the city's decision in your packet. The physical constraints complicated. These are the ditches. These are the telephone poles, the utility poles. This is actually a previous sidewalk deferral away a year ago. This was from Kenya where the public works. Department maintained by others means the city of Jacksonville doesn't maintain roadways there for sidewalk can installed or not. Many of us not city maintain they normally don't require sidewalks. These are not city maintained. The cities and just go over it all time city's position is that there's growth in the area. Again, there's no growth that's connecting to this. The only sidewalk is at the apartment complex that doesn't go anywhere. And these are not city maintain roads. And this is important point. Deferral is not permanent waiver. When the city puts together a plan and want sidewalks installed in this area than the owners will be required put in sidewalks. We would ask that you reverse the written interpretation and I'm happy to answer any questions you might have. Thank you. MR. Miller. I'd like to hear the other side. >> We've got 4 minutes left on the clock. This for 37. A man. Check this. Make sure you ready for Yeah. Again, same thing with MISTER Mueller. You have up to 10 minutes of 5 minutes, a sufficient that we can start the clock to 10. >> I've got 11 slide. So many needs 6 minutes or so. But I wanted the full All right. Good morning. Lena Sickler public We're here to discuss the deferral request and the denial that the public works has has offered for this. Want to give a little background, the commitment to complete streets was established and forced through resolution 2019 63 required improvements in 6. 54.1 33, it mandates that new developments and redevelopment projects include added that pedestrian facilities. 6 54.1 37 covers deviations and there are several potential opportunities if and when sidewalk construction is not feasible and I'll cover some of these in further detail and some of the slides. You seen this already to the right is the development of 19 homes. And so these homes that are already built by Jacksonville Homes, llc, and they are continuous and they're built simultaneously. So the roads, as you've seen or rocket, which are the north-south road drone Polk Road. Our East West as well as the diagonal, which is Jet Street. So you can see in the middle picture. These are these are lovely homes. These are places that families are probably going to want to move. The challenges. The roads are not maintained by the city. And what a what we've heard from different neighborhoods is that that actually makes it a lot harder for elderly and disabled to get between their neighbors and to get places and so and and maintain road actually is as a as a further reason that sidewalks are beneficial to this neighborhood. So just a little bit more background. 64.1 33 states that sidewalks will be provided for all developments. That includes infill lots that's underlined as well as existing streets. So it's not limited to new subdivisions. We reinforced we require sidewalks in private private streets as well. That come to us when they come in as a new subdivision. So it is not unique that it that a non city maintained road require sidewalks with sidewalks are acquired the next 2 highlighted areas. Just describe some of the options. One is a 5 foot Both sides of the road. Another is a 6 foot sidewalk on one side of the road and the other, the other arrangements that can be made. Speaking of that deviations that's handled in 6 54.1 37. And that is specifically for these types of projects in Seoul, infill, lots and the ultimate decision on granting deferral comes to the director. Of course, now it's in front of you when an appeal is made. So the very first item that states is director shall determine when sidewalks are needed based on the growth of the area surrounding the development. The next item highlight it is that with a lot. Lies within the walk shed of certain destinations. Park schools, bus, stop shopping centers, etc. Finally, I want to say about the background is that no deviation is to be granted solely on the basis of economic hardship or if it have the effect of nullifying the intent and purpose of these regulations. So from there, let's go and look at the location. And this is 19 single-family homes. You see the diagram, the the black line is the one mile radius. It's in council district. 8 north of the airport east of I-95 and the nearest intersection Main Street Duval Station Road. We are familiar with this area. Most of us. It's a very it's very much a growing area. So we look at what is surrounding this area. And so we look at the infrastructure. It's hard to see. But I've turned on some red lines. So those red lines the map for all the roadways in the area and then the yellow line is all the sidewalks. So in 20 miles of roadway, there's 13 and a half miles of sidewalk. That's over. 67 1% of the roadways in this one-mile radius already have sidewalks. In addition, let's talk about the surrounding walk which is one of the criteria so you can see in the bottom, right? That's first Coast High school. We've had a lot of discussions council about the need for accommodating pedestrian safety heading to first Coast High School. You can see in the red dots. Those are 15 school bus stop within a one-mile radius. And then there's 3 that are highlighting that are within a half-mile radius. The closest to the blue shape is within 800 feet of the end of Rockets Street, which is where which is where this development occurs. And then you have the va clinic on the other side of Main Street. So there are a lot of facilities in this area. We have medical offices that recently been billed as a Culver's cbs. Publix Chick-Fil-a was to fly. So all of those are within a one-mile radius of this development. We're also looking at. Surrounding development. So we looked at permitting since 2018. So we look at the 3 year period, 18, 1920. They're only 7 permits. When you look at 21 to 23, there were 28 and then looking at 24 to SEPTEMBER of this year, less than 3 years or 48 permits. So you can see the trend that this is a growing area and that we are accommodating what's coming to this area. In addition to that residential units 290 apartments that were built in 2024. To an 85 nearby that work opened in 2025. And apd for 122 single family is at northern part of this radius. So to summarize, we looked at walk, shed the safety reasons. The school school bus stops. We looked at the location, the va clinic, medical offices and pharmacy, other places that people want to walk to. We looked at the expansion of residential units. We looked at the retail dining and grocery destinations that are within walking distance when I was out there looking at the site, I saw a young woman walking north on Main Street heading to that heading from the convenience store in other areas up to up to the neighborhood. I saw bicyclists coming from the other side of Main Street Crossing Main Street to go to the neighborhoods. So people will use these facilities ultimately in our goal is to make sure that we do that. Now talk about disabled elderly residents. When you have an and maintained road, it's really important to give them somewhere to walk safely for children walking to school. Those going to the high school. I'm going to the bus stops. These are needed now. And so it's not sensible. You see on the bump. Excuse me, the bottom that's these homes are being built. Why would you want to tear these up later? It also becomes the that the responsibility of the homeowner at that time. Right now we get to get this built at once. If proceed without sidewalks, now that we're gonna have to work with every single homeowner to get these individual sections of sidewalk built when it's when one is later and I'm going to tear up their yards. Doesn't make sense. We've also seen the difficulty of and forcing things that are later, whether it's with the developer or others. And so it can be disrupted and a lot more work. And we know the prices are not getting any lower. If we wait to do it later, says going to cost more and it's going to be the cost of the homeowner. So to summarize, we believe that the sidewalks are required there, feasible and deferrals, not just a 5% 4.1 37. Thank Sickler. >> Ms Miller. Every bump. Yes, scattered 4 minutes and right things out alleges want make sure their sentences a public hearing. There's any other public comment by me, a bill to about that as Go ahead in the show. >> To the after the city's presentation by director Sickler comes the public hearing. If there any parts. There are no cars. And any questions from committee MR. Carlucci icu indicate I'm going make you Greatness. Gaffney district. Yeah, thank you to That's the question I initially. I was trying to make sure it is my district. >> Because I on this. Let me go ahead and make a deferral. If you all want to go ahead and vote, we could vote today. I would like to go out of See what is area. I don't feel com play right now. Voting on it now. It's lab is 5. You guys so I would love to see what you guys got to say. But I need to go out to this area right up to area. A leaf. See what we voting on off a comp right now voting on it. So that was my initial question. But I mean, willing. To listen to my committee members. I want to vote this morning. We can but I would let around area. >> Thank you, MR. Miller. >> I the cyclons presentation up quick. I think it's still up. I do. >> I don't have control of that. >> This is my presentation. But if you notice that her presentation highlighted for roads are in red, but then the sidewalks and yellow. If you notice on that, there's no yellow connecting to this property. That's the issue. We'd be building sidewalks that connect on the casselberry where there are no sidewalks are asking is for deferral. So in the city does build sidewalks casselberry then we could build in the sidewalks to connect to it. So people that require this walk shed would be. Paying more for a home because sidewalks of going in going down the sidewalk and then walking a mile to get to another sidewalk on sidewalk. Roads. We're just asking the city be consistent on this. On Alexis Lai, Lun gas at which are all lots of record, which are all within a couple 100 feet of this property. 14 to 15 homes have been approved in the last few years where no sidewalks have been required again when the city has a plan in place to actually put a sidewalk on casselberry to connect to the sidewalks on Main Street. Then the deferral program requires to do that. But that's the issue. These aren't city maintain streets. That's one of the criteria. There's no sidewalk to connect to within 100 feet. That's part of the criteria. We're not asking to get around. Having to put in sidewalks are asking to be put participate in the deferral program. Happy to answer any questions you might have. >> Second, sir. Before we go to questions from. Committee members. Don't know if I should. I forward ms Sickler opportunity to rebut anything. >> To the chair. That's yes. Your discretion. >> MISS A clip. And then we'll we'll. Entertain questions from committee to. The applicant and the up Helly. >> So the applicant mentions that one of the criteria, which is whether their sidewalk within 100 feet. But that's one of several criteria in the primary ones are when our sidewalks needed and >> our department >> sees it. It's needed now he addressed projects before that we're not the did not request sidewalk that are nearby. Will you saw the trending in development. You saw that the permit it numbers have increased exponentially. And so now is the time. And so that that's the distinction is that using a past project as comparison is is not is not valid in this case. The the directors given a discretion determine when sidewalks are needed, given the number of permits that are now trending in that area. The development that's there that the decision was made, that this is the time that we need to begin, ensuring that those folks have egress to the bus stops. Bus stop is 100 feet away. He mentioned it was not a half mile to the nearest. Not sure what number, but it's it's less than a quarter mile to the nearest bus stop and the nearest a sidewalk from the end of Rocket Street. >> Committee members, MISTER Carlucci. We are in the Thank you, MR. Chair. Would I would support differing let the district COUNCILMAN Go out there and take a look at it. And and report back to What I think would be. Best for me decide. Thank you. Thank you. Areas. >> Thank you, chair. I too agree with MISTER Carlucci out all defer MISTER Gaffney's input on that. I will tell you my honest this, I first announced I was kind of like, you know what the sidewalks to know where it's kind of ridiculous. That slide we saw was I'm pretty bad. He really moved me. But then seeing the presentation from a secular and public works I in my district alone, I'm big on safety and I'm not talking about Public on a pedestrian safety and seen those reds without any yellows. That really did worry me. So MISTER Gaffney, ow. Ow. Wait on you to come by to us in the port. But when it comes to kids and their bus stops pedestrian safety, I'm there on those. So I look to your judgment on that part. 100 feet away 0.1, 5, a mile. I could run that in a minute and a half. So not even that's how close it is. My point I trust what followed was his doing? And so in this case. I'll be leaning on them and us Miller and if you're got come back and show me otherwise, thank you. This pollution. Thank you. To chair to the body if Iran that it would probably be 20 minutes. >> I know an council members. No, I mean, I think I think much of the commentary is is kind I had to settling at a lot of my district is very old. And so I think there's a whole bunch of places that would kill to have sidewalks and different things and have they been built 40 years ago would make it substantially easier than it is today. MISS A quarter of a quick question to the point of what MR. Miller was bringing up with the other properties that to that are part of the deferral program. Why were they a part of the deferral program and at this one was because they were 20 years ago or was it a year and a half ago? It's a combination of of timing. >> The the development has, you know, expanded recently much more, but also because they were more intermittent. There were maybe one or 2 on a street or 3 on a street. This is 19 that are essentially continuous. This is an opportunity to put in connected section of sidewalk that we don't always have the opportunity to do. And I would hate to put that on the homeowner in the future enough to disrupt in the future. Now now seem like the right time to get done. >> Anderson, I just want make sure. I think MR. Is gonna come up refute that. What were those properties where those other properties with the same property owner, property men are. It was the same developers before ok so far through the chair as a member. >> Yeah, I'm gonna directly refute that. These were not in minute. These are mostly homes that are right next to each other on the street. That's actually between this and where the sidewalk is actually closer. The sidewalk casselberry near the apartment complex and looking at the typical vacuum and see they were approved in. 21. 22 23. So these weren't in little lost. These are several lots all in a row. Coming off a casselberry on the north and the South. Threw the chair. I would also be found the deferral, especially that's okay with >> Mostly applicant with deferral. Something that that you object to or would you lie? Always in favor of the city council getting more information. So yes, understood. Thank you, chair. MISS Holder questions for public. >> Thank you to the chair. Just so point of PRESIDENT Clarification with the deferral program. I think I heard Ms Sickler mentioned that it would be I guess you have to Courtney with each individual homeowner and that they would have to cost have the. >> Actually, agree my client, MR. Briggs. I think it addresses because he's been through the deferral program. Okay? Yes. I just wanted to see if the homeowner absorbs the cause of causes that developer. And I do have a second question. >> Ultimately, it would be the homeowner that always absorb cost. You know, whenever you're selling a property what was back up when you're buying a property, you have you factor everything in whether it's, you know, liens against property, whether it's tree mitigation, you have to pay with other. There's going to be sidewalk. That's gonna be mandated that we have to build into the price. Really going to pay the property and are less money and or we're going give yourself more money to accommodate for any no cost. Everyone pays no matter how you look at it. And once as a builder, the developer password. You know, it's it's paid for when the property is sold. So the deferral program, yes, ultimately down the road. If the city decides to maintain a road that is not maintained by the city today, which is still hardship for me to understand. You're not maintaining the dirt road today. You're going require sidewalks who's going to maintain their sidewalks of the city doesn't because they do maintain the roads. There's no, you requirement for them to do anything in the right away. Others are roads that when you have sidewalks you know, are cracked a busted up all around town, he's gonna maintain that property owner. If they want to have us, I want this safe. So disagree with that part. But as far as that, yes, a property and would end up paying for it either up front of that pay for it again. And did so. >> initial consist Golden's, whatever financing they MAY be having the later on down the line. They would have to have that dollar amount readily available in order to get it done. And then I guess my second question is to the point of it, the sidewalks not connecting to anything else, which to me. So what's a COUNCILMAN Areas like? Well, that doesn't make sense. When do we anticipate the surrounding? Areas to potentially have more sidewalks added because it is annoying. I can't think of another word to walk on the sidewalk for a few and then not be on the sidewalk. So realistically, how do we see some connections to really build into the the community back of answer that I do Mystic Lamb, thank you. So as I mentioned, there's one there's just one stretch of sidewalk that is lacking. But seeing a raucous street. >> To the bus stop that is closest to that neighborhood. And you know, get. >> Pending available funding feasibility. >> This as long as castle is U.S. City maintain road, find ways potentially to connect those and that way it could provide a continuous path to that is to those bus stops possible. >> Thank MISTER Mueller. I got a if the cost of the construction of the side wall I hate the expressions sidewalk to nowhere because but this safety's office. Out to me. But if the cost is the reason >> requested deferral which public works is already stated is not just