Duval DOGE Special Committee

Good morning. 11 o'clock. And I'm call the special committee on Duval Doge to order. Let's start off with introductions to my far left. >> Wellingham see Council research. Very Plus office General counsel ramparts counselor's office Taylor Council auditor. Goodmorning Rory Diamond District. 13, the beaches, Ron Salem group, 2 at large. My gay district, 2 Councilmember Miller is caught on the main Street bridge and will be here soon. And I have not heard from Councilmember area so. >> I'm not sure if he's coming or not. So, but we're going to move on. I do want to address a couple of things before we get into the main topic of today, we have no public comment cards on toll. But you get his card. I'm gonna give you I'm gonna give you 2 minutes. You did. Councilmember Miller is joining us. Let the record show. Can I get card? MR. Nanny, you have 2 minutes. Your microphone is not on the stern inning. All right. We start the clock again. No, just keep going. It's not easier. >> I am John j noon. A Jacksonville City Council resolution 2023, 0, 1, 9 City Council district. 4 cpac planning district 3 school board district 3. All right. Dozier waterways. A tie. You know, only got a minute. 24, you know, just zip through this stuff. But here's river dance. You know, putting the river and river city. Here's the Northeast. Florida Regional Council 2001, a new report at 7 pounds. Here's the latest. Northeast, Florida Regional Council. You trying hoard of directors and this is do stuff, you know, listen, when you get finished with Natalee, you know, lets, you see, could j t a resolution. You for the jta. Resiliency Park. You know, on pot spurred great, weren't the b b. You know, we hit every bucket in the world. Just 30 seconds. But here's find. You know, this is 12 counties. It's east coast of the state of Florida. So anyway, Doge. Where can you save money? Well, you can start by, you know, just getting rid of the resiliency thing. You know, today and cuddly. And he's still have yet to you know, phone call back. But just watch to you. Just. Visit Jacksonville. >> We're on the map. >> Thank you, MR. Duty. Okay. Let let the record show Councilmember area since joining us. Let me address a couple of other issues on the agenda. The group health update to the the team has not received the claim history from Florida Blue quite yet. So I hope they'll be able to to come to our next meeting with some type of up day. But as of now, they have not received it on or begun their analysis. And in terms of the 2% lapse in the budget, the council auditors have sent out a a procedure for the various divisions departments to come to us. If they wish to receive some of those laps dollars back. I assume that was sent around and all of you saw it as of now, I have not received any inquiries about that. I assume the auditors have not. Police missed this Taylor. >> For the chair to the committee, we actually did receive one from the inspector general's office. There are lapses 27,718 in total. So we'll be evaluating their responses and try to bring us some rain type of form with some financial history so that you'll have that and we can discuss either at the next meeting of the meeting after that to do that. >> I would also encourage you to also make some type of recommendation after your analysis is complete on whether you think it's a reasonable request or not. Ok, so when you have one, hopefully hopefully we won't get a lot of those. But if so, we will address a man and d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d it forward. Maid full for today's discussion is the jt update on the utc. I've asked MISTER Forward to to initiate this discussion with the a 10 minute plus 10 to 15 minute presentation for us. And then we'll open it up to questions from the council as well as any on la. I'm sorry. Councilmember Joe Carlucci is joined us. Thank Councilmember anyone that has questions wants to get in the queue. Please go ahead and do that. And will circle around and get all our questions answered, MR. Ford. >> Good Morning and thank CHAIRMAN Ron Salem and members of the special committee Erdos. I'm here today to speak to you about the Jacksonville Transportation Authority. Is you to see program and the neighborhood autonomous Vehicle. Innovation Service known as Snap I recognize and appreciate the work that you're doing, particularly as it relates to accountability, oversight and ensuring proper stewardship of taxpayer dollars. That fund this particular program. To that end, the jta addressed. Each of COUNCILMAN Diamonds questions we provided. Our response is to the full committee and your colleagues on City Council on last Friday, OCTOBER 31st. Just moment of just privilege. I want to make sure I acknowledge some of our past board of directors. I'm joined by former chair of the board, Ari Jolly, as well as Pat Sams, who serves as our secretary treasurer. And I also need to recognize the jta staff and in particularly our automation. Innovation development staff that are here today on JUNE 30th. They actually made history and the work that they've done since the beginning of the nab the program is You've got to be in awe of the work that they've done the hard work developing some of the most ambitious programs in mobile mobility over the years. So as I mentioned to you to see is a very ambitious and challenging project. It's probably most challenging project in the jta U.S. History. We began this innovative mobility program with no regulations, no blueprint, no one that we could follow or copy. We built it from scratch. And we're very proud of that work. We had to design and develop and in fact, comply would buy America and develop our own by America compliant vehicle to ensure we met the requirements of our federal grant years of testing research and development, you should have received recently as part of this development. There's many hurdles that will go down kind of in the history book that this team actually surpassed and were able to deliver. And more recently, another hurdle has been tossed in front of us. It's related to one of the software providers for the nab. The system. Our contract is with Balfour, Beatty. They are the prime contractor. We have all of the belts and suspenders in place to hold them accountable and ensure there's no disruption in service and we are waiting there a confirmation of a actual solution to that challenge. As you know, this autonomous vehicle technology read about it every day. It being in flowing and changing as fast as I'm speaking here. But the jta again, we've on behalf of our taxpayers are holding Balfour Beatty accountable along with their sub consultants beeping knocks a to ensure that we don't have a disruption in service. And as we work through this this challenge, we'll keep you informed in terms of our progress and I'm available to ask answer any questions that the appropriate time related to this newest development. So update in terms of phase one on the you to see program again. Thank you for the opportunity and JUNE of this year. Phase one of the you to see was implemented. We launch it relaunch Navy on the Base Street innovation quarter, which is a 3 and a half mile loop. That is strategically plan to connect a key destinations in downtown Jacksonville since JUNE. 30th. I'm running from JUNE 30th to SEPTEMBER. 30th over 5300 passengers. I have used the system. That data is reported to our jta Board of directors as well as the Florida Department of Transportation. And as you know, over the last 10 years, we have launched many new transportation services here in Jacksonville and we have implemented what is called a best practice is something I've been in this industry for over 4 decades. And if you're launching a new service being a light rail system streetcar in our case bus Rapid Transit with the first Coast Flyer as well as Jr tc on the western side of downtown. We use ambassadors to heighten the level of customer service and interaction as we do this launch. And so I know that might be a question as it relates to the use of ambassadors, but it's kind of old tried and true mechanism by transit systems all around the world. Frankly, when you're launching a new service to make sure that your have boots on the ground to ensure that there's a smooth transition and introduction to your customers. And so we can talk about more about that later. As you know, there is great deal of development occurring in downtown with over 8 billion dollars in development. This program that has launched on JUNE 30 30th bet on actually was founded on that development of downtown Jacksonville. So when you look at the nab, the stops and we have some depictions here, the nab the stations, if you look very closely within steps of an avid stop, you have Riverfront Plaza, which is a signature green space, which is opening up in early 2026, you have the 4 season hotel and residences which will be completed by the end of 2026, you have the new Museum of Science and History, which is reopening a 2028 and is expected to draw nearly half a million visitors each year. And we're looking further ahead at the Jacksonville Jaguars, stadium of the future Shipyards West, a potential hard Rock hotel and other expanding entertainment dining and waterfront destinations. So the actual nav, the system is an ahead of the development. That was part of our original planning and development of the service in the first place in the very beginning. It was part of our actual grant application with the federal government. And more recently, the University of Florida has announced their plans to develop their campus on the west end of a street next to the Jacksonville Regional Transportation Center. We are ready planning to do an expansion of the nab the on Bay Street to connect with jr tc in 2026. So that work is already underway. Over 2000 downtown residential units are under construction and multifamily projects are going to bring many residents to our downtown core. As it relates to phase one and beyond building this infrastructure again ahead of the wave of development isn't a risk. Its actually sound planning and fact, frankly, it's not normally the case. Usually the development occurs. You have the congestion. You have the traffic and then someone is trying to put in a transportation Mobility solution this all for that problem, which then disrupts the development that has just been recently put in We're very proud of the fact that we had the foresight to move forward with the plans that were laid out by the city of Jacksonville for development on Bay Street. In that vein, the investment that is occurring in this quarter. We have 12 and a half million dollar federal grant as part of phase one on nav, a program. We also have 13 million dollars in state funding and the balance of funding came from the j Tas Capital Investment Fund that we've developed over the years. So ultimately what the eu to see and not be is all about is preparing this. This city fort, not just today, but for the Jacksonville tomorrow with the realize ation of all of this development that is occurring. We remain confident and the official projection models that were required by the state of Florida and our local transportation planning organization. The tpo, that is where the ridership projections actually originate phase 2 of to see is already in motion and is focusing on our plans to modernize and convert the Skyway into a elevated roadway for autonomous vehicles. Our project development and environmental pd in the study is currently under way. This is the first step it will conclude in 2026. Followed by a 30% design completion. But later in the year as part of the requirement for apd and the study we host public meetings. This is a requirement, but there are public meetings that are held as part of that pd. Any study to get community feedback and these meetings will begin at the early part of next year. So starting in JANUARY, phase 3, as you know, will extend that he be on the downtown core into neighborhoods such as Springfield, Brooklyn, Riverside and San Marco connecting residents to jobs. Small businesses, our signature hospitals parks, another key destinations. And I talk about the park's connections, obviously with the Emerald Trail. This connectivity scalability integration with other transit sisters systems. I is what the Skyway originally promised. What we're delivering is on that original Skyway promise and the eu to see what create the connectivity that we are seeking. We're not just talking about autonomous shuttles and transportation systems. That's important of it's been it's in and of itself. We're also talking about economic growth as you're aware last week on a vehicle manufacturer and producer of the Hole on Urban together with his partner in Light, signed a term sheet for the construction of its first manufacturing facility for autonomous vehicles in the United States here in Jacksonville, Florida. This is also the first manufacturing plant that. Not in our case. Unfortunately, that wasn't in place when we had to do the Buy America complying vehicle but going into the future, not just for the jta but for the rest of the nation and around the northeast north, the northern part of our continent. This is an opportunity to have purpose-built vehicles for the United States. Jta also signed an agreement where hold on they will be leasing office space as they begin to relocate their U.S. Headquarters from Michigan. 2 Jacksonville, according to the study by University of North Florida. The construction phase is expected to generate over 200 million dollars in economic impact and support more than 800 jobs and the construction of the plant along 580,000 Square foot facility once operational. This system is forecasted to generate 87 million dollars and annual annual economic output. A local return of about $2 for every one dollar that we invest. But the benefits go even further as the first autonomous vehicle manufacturing facility, United States. It has developed at least in terms of Jacksonville, a national hub for autonomous mobility and advanced manufacturing. Not just here in Florida, but for the entire Western Hemisphere. This initiative is attracting Moussa lot suppliers, technology partners to northeast Florida and strengthening workforce development through collaboration is with our local colleges and trade schools so that you to see program and now the service are not just investments in infrastructure, its an investment in our people. And like each of you, the jta will relentlessly protect the public's investment while preserving the momentum of the mobility program. That's creating a more connected and innovative Jacksonville. It's a program that's had its successes. It's had its challenges. We'll talk about some of those. Once I finish my remarks. But I'm confident we will overcome any roadblocks through stewardship and unwavering commitment to American taxpayers and upholding the public trust. So MR. CHAIRMAN members of the committee with that concludes my prepared available for any questions. >> Thank you, MR. For let me mention Councilmember is joining As indicated, if you'd like ask questions, please get in the queue and we're going to rotate between members and non-members. I'm going to begin and recognize some other people, MR. Ford the ridership clearly is is I think disappointing to all of us to some extent. It seems like the numbers came have come down. And I think some of that must be related to the fact you no longer charging customers. Now, is that correct? Yes, we are actually started actor actually collecting fares. >> On OCTOBER first, I'm sorry. You started collecting ferry OCTOBER one. Do you have the OCTOBER numbers as of yet? No, I I can have them have staff member actually look those up. I'm just curious how the the charging of customers back to acted in from SEPTEMBER to OCTOBER. Yes, I'd like to add a little bit of. A little bit of discussion around that. We are literally 100 days into the launch of a new system. We are far ahead of the development. That was part of the planning for this system. So when really take a look at it, I think many of us on that. I say on the jta side on the technical side on the industry side, we actually are kind of. Pleased that we are ahead of the actual development that's going to occur. So I listed out some of those developments that occur in the For example, I left out. But those developments are going to lead to the ridership that we expected on this corridor and was part of the projections that was developed by the tpo in partnership with fdot and which led to us getting the grant in the very beginning. So I think a snapshot, 100 days in a corridor that has a great deal of construction and frankly, no people at this juncture, minimal number of people. It's not an indication of the actual success. This program MAY have and 5, 10, 15 to 20 years. >> Let me him a lot of question. I Chloe understand the need to get ahead of the development and having. Many of those future developments, summer, 2, 3, 4 years away. And my concern is, are we too far ahead of the development to where ridership is going to be at the level we're at now for quite some time before development occurs to where the ridership can can can increase. >> Yeah, that's difficult for me to answer in terms of the pace that the city will develop. >> That based our projections on the development that was proposed at that time. And if the lag, if the development is lagging, it's it's unfortunate circumstance. But I think we met our schedule in terms of developing this based on those projections. Any thought of >> Paul seeing or or doing anything if the development does not occur at the pace that you're hoping for. >> I think the challenge we would have is that if we pause, we will actually have to reimburse the federal government and the Florida Department of Transportation are there. Are there investment and in fact, they probably they would know frowned upon that because those dollars could have went to other projects and other communities. Okay across the country but across the state and across country >> how much time are you giving me? How much time that you put up there cause. I want to be fair to everybody. Want to give me 3 more minutes and we'll give 6 minutes to each member if if you will. The Skyway. What I I had harder originally that you thought by the 1st quarter of 26 that you have an idea with that 30% part of the study being completed, whether the the Skyway was viable for the for the vehicles. Is that are you still looking at making a decision on the Skyway by the 1st quarter middle? 26 win right? >> By the 1st quarter and 2026 apd. Any study should be complete. The preliminary design and engineering study actually looks at multiple options and you're required to do that from a federal standpoint. The multiple options. So that keeps you line for federal grants to actually support the program. So we're doing the pd. Any study. We're looking at multiple options. Everything from conversion, the Skyway to a no build, which is you're going and buying additional Skyway vehicles and using the existing infrastructure. And I think this is a part of history. We do recognize that at least at this juncture, from engineering standpoint, there's approximately 25 years of useful life and real structure, the concrete aerial structure and the federal government requires us to get it to the end of its useful life from the original grant that the city of Jacksonville received in the very beginning of the Skyway. So that's part of the backdrop sub. So when and 26 will you have? >> 30% have a 30% and be able to tell the public. This is our plan for the Skyway. Will that in the 1st quarter? 2nd quarter? 26. Yeah. It will be this summer of 2026. We should have the 30% design complete it and be able to tell the public this is the plan for the Skyway yesterday, Okay. To to respond to the letter that came and went before the meeting with baby and the software issue. If you're not able to resolve that relationship with Beatty and you can't get the software for the vehicles that are out there now. What does that do for the present project? Right? So Oran. What we are discussing, about for baby is no disruption in the actual service. Their software provider which is Ocso the subcontractor. They have indicated that they would like to get out of the passenger transport for business and remain and autonomous vehicle transport, but for cargo and for freight. With that being said, there are other software providers out there. There's Mobileye there's at Aztec discussions have already begun with them. However, it takes time to upload that software onto these vehicles test those vehicles. So the worst case scenario would be about 2 to 3 months. >> As far as 6 months of actually manually operating the vehicles until such time. You make that transfer. They are going through their legal process. We have sent some pretty strong letters and it's our understanding that the and bell for her come up with a solution to move forward without a disruption. But at some point in the future will have to transfer to another software provider. >> Ok, I'm gonna I have other questions. But let me move to counsel or diamond. Please put 6 minutes. >> Thank you, MR. Chair, first of thank you that and your entire team for coming here. Thank you for answering all my questions. You know, we just have a respectful policy difference. But I just I feel like people need to know and I have been friends for over 10 years. This is respectful policy questions that we're asking. So 2 truck don't read too much into us. Both doing our jobs here out in public. It's always that always bothers me. Said let me just a couple of things to start with this city Council. Ask you to build this I it was literally our request to you said, all right, we're going to raise this gas tax. We're going to use this money, some for these projects over here and then some for you to see. And we ask you to build it. And in my brain, it's I have a lot of faith that jta can build whatever we asked the bill. I just know you can be done it before. I've seen wonderful street just ructions all sorts of other good things done. >> And so to me the what this reminds me of is building a casino, having a really, really well operate a casino, but it's it's been built on the moon, right? Nobody there to use it. And so it is not about the casino operator jta. In this instance. It's it's to me it's just about whether or not we should be doing this at all and doing it there. So that's about that's where I'm coming from. So my question for you is it's essentially why? Because you've told us that this is an untested no one's ever done this. No blueprint, very challenging, very ambitious project where city of a million people. You know, we have a strap city budget that we just cut a million ways the other day. Why not just do something that's really simple. Tried and true. Understood technology. Why we have to do just kind of mysterious Thomas vehicles. Thank you for that question is very good question. And threw the chair r. >> COUNCILMAN Dimon, I think the success of our city, it's going to largely depend on mobility and we need to look at mobility modes that are. It's not a question of if it's a question of when and so autonomous vehicle technology is coming now. They're going to be those communities that lead and right now Jacksonville is in the lead. The number of visitors were having from around the globe coming here, the mayor of Atlanta, the number of dignitaries from Tokyo. They're coming here to see this because this is clearly going to be the mobility of the future. Those communities that embrace this technology and leverage it. Those are the ones who will be in front from the economic development education standpoint, all the of life standpoint, those that choose to stick their heads in the sand or choose to go with. Now in this case, I don't want to be 2 dramatic, but those who decide to stay with the horse and buggy versus the automobile. It's that kind of transformation that's occurring right now, So, but do not go too long, but think it's it's a gamble, though, right through the chair, MR. For it's a gamble, It's a 240 million dollar Gamble. We're going to make at least maybe a quarter million dollar gamble. >> I mean, isn't it also just possible that autonomous cars will give everyone the transportation that they need? I mean, for 400 million dollars, you could give people 4 billion, $10. Uber rides. That's more than enough. I think whatever happens downtown, why not allow the market to develop what it's going to do anyways? I mean, literally, my car drove me here and I didn't touch my steering wheel. Drove all the way here. And that's when the beaches, 30 minute drive. Why not rely on that to provide the economy for the technology for the future. >> So if we look at the population growth for Duval County and particularly in downtown having robo taxis and we've looked at this nationally too, having robo taxis just creates more congestion in our streets because what we do is public transportation is a shared ride. We do it for those individuals who can't afford a car or in some cases can't drive. And so this is an alternative, provide them that mobility and accessibility. And, you know, we're all kind of, I think, differently, financial different financiar stature and this community in terms of I think you used the word a gamble. I don't think this is so much a gamble in terms of these technologies that are being developed around the world were not by ourselves. Now there's probably 30 to 40 different autonomous vehicle projects around the country and even more around the world. And so again, it's coming up. The thing is as the jta we have to be prudent and smart as we develop it and protect taxpayer dollars. We are not going to do something that is too far off the north. The path of autonomy. >> Okay. And then city. So I'm I'm tracking at least with the responses when it comes to hold on in the vehicles. I'm slightly concerned that I don't think they've been approved for autonomous driving on the streets anywhere in the country is our right. >> They do not have a vehicle, I not not at this juncture. We are working with them. They have their own staff and lobbyist who are working in dc with the U.S. Dot the Federal Highway Administration to get that certification. >> So yeah, but through the chair. So we've got this issue. It acts over here on software. We've got a question whether or not that's a gets a waiver for or long gets a waiver. What's the I understand? You've got maybe other software providers if Aqsa doesn't work out, what do we do? Have whole on doesn't get a waiver and we can't. There's no place for anyone to drive this There's no driver spot. >> There's other. There are other autonomous vehicle manufacturers are coming online. You have on you have had a stack. So we did a statewide per tournament that has 3 different manufacturers MAY mobility. So again, Poland is coming to Jacksonville, but they do have competitors that are also developing autonomous vehicle. So we have multiple options. >> just have one more going use other people can do. But I understand your argument on ambassadors helping, as you welcome new technology. Is that over now or? >> Yes, that's over. Now. Stopped it. Not too soon after we started collecting fares, we wanted to make sure customers knew how to use the new fare collection equipment. But I will say again, I was somewhat surprised about that new story where it's kind of basic whenever you launch any new product in a business are in this case, public transportation, you get people from behind their desks that in a straight of building, you train them. And on the day of the launch, you put them out in the field to help educate people on how the new use the new system. So that is something we've done with the route optimization here back in 2015, we did it with each leg of the first Coast Flyer. So it's become a common practice. Not just for Jacksonville. I know. I like I said for years, I did this in San Francisco in Atlanta. Get the administrative folks. They're paid not hourly. They're paid annually and you give them change of responsibility. Change of duty for that particular day. A new purse that you put them in the field, boots on the ground to actually understand and help our customers understand the new system. Not unusual. Not unusual at all. >> Let me move. Let me mention Council Rajon son has joined us. Thank you attending. And let me move to Councilmember area super 6 minutes. All right. Thank you, MISTER Chair. I'll get back on the queue. And Kuz. I run over. All right, MR. Ford, thank you for coming in to team. Thank you for presenting on this today. Obviously, some of us are New York to this council than sum of our colleagues here to my left. So I want to start off with the how in the wind, MISTER Dimon Start asked, why are we doing this program? I know that this came from a local action option, gas tax. My question to you and to some of the council members that have been here previous term is why are we doing this? Did you guys decide all of a sudden to just create this or did you come to council and say, hey, council, this is our idea. You guys want to proceed is so gives a green light and then we'll proceed. So chair, MISTER Ford. That's my question to you. Did you guys come to council and asked for counsel for this approval to proceed in this project? We coordinated with the city of Jacksonville and developing phase one of the project. >> Phase one of the project is the Base Street Innovation corridor also called n# # . It has federal funding state funding and it has also jta local funds jta funds that we had in our Capital investment program. It was part of an overarching. Solution to deal with mobility downtown and the obsolete Skyway. Thank you, Yes, could great on time. Did you ask you guys come to council and the council approved this project? Yes or no. They signed off on the project is part of the project development and by the year talking about some of the members that are currently sitting right here on this dies. I would say. Yes. Sounds like a small, small small majority noticed previous class of council members You guys approved this project. That's a start off with that. All right. Secondly, what maybe some of us didn't vote for it. But I know that the previous cost it. I second the I want to come talk about the ridership. Many times. I come from a larger city of Miami. And I've always said how things are was backwards and we start building buildings and then we work on the infrastructure and it's always his back was the fact that you guys have this process already pretty much not to the finish line, but has already started. Shows a testament to you guys are being forward-thinking innovative because at the Once shipyard that the Jaguars team comes online, MARCH Museum of the Hotels. I mean, you name it. There's so many moving parts and downtown, like you said, over a billion dollars worth of projects in downtown. >> We're going to be at point where we're going to have start being reactive. What are we going to do to be able to transport people? So what you guys are doing in my opinion, is the smart move being ahead of the curve to make sure that we could accommodate those those individuals who need the ridership. The problem is it's not a jta problem that we have year. The problem is that we had a poor downtown vision and not be the iconic a national downtown plan. And these projects are downtown have taken longer. It's not gts fault that they have no ridership right now. I read here on the on the packet. It was about 6500. It's not your fault. Your job is not to bring people downtown. Your job is to move them around downtown. It's our job and city council the eye to make sure that people are living in downtown and working in playing here in downtown. So to to question the ridership problem. Look at yourself. That's a look at the eye. Let's talk to Dan to see why do we have enough people in downtown so the Gta could do their job properly. So that's not point the finger at jta for this part. You know, they they're doing their job and they're doing the job pretty effectively. And well me at that MR. Ford, you mentioned 5300 riders, but on this package that we received on Friday, it said 6500 riders. I'm assuming the 6500 riders from OCTOBER correcting audience a look. Right? So you're looking at roughly 1600 riders per month and the last 4 months give or take another 4 days in NOVEMBER. Mrs saying I'm asking a question, ridership and totals for OCTOBER. I don't know if you if you mentioned that the was a revenue that you guys brought in front over. >> I'll have a staff member. Look that up revenue in terms of fare collection for that month. That will get that. So I asked because I want to know if ridership dipped in OCTOBER because of that more sustain the same level of not or MAY be increased yet to end to I would say intuitively it did drop. That's what happens when you start charging fares. A lot of the ridership we're seeing in the very beginning where people were interested parties, some of the construction workers along that corridor. I happen to be out there for about hour last night parked on Bay Street just watching what was starting to see the construction workers from the 4 seasons walked to the parking over by slot and rather than paying the $1.75 to actually right now so you know charging fares does have its impact. And we're on that too. Teetering, unfortunately, because the development has not occurred in that quarter. So what we were enjoying in the first 3 months, we're losing at this point, charging fares. Okay. So just out of practicality, the fair's a $1.75 is what you mentioned. Just the cash fare. Yes, ok? So let's say we continue the same level of ridership, which is 1600 riders 16. 44 per month. >> You're looking not unlike the revenue of $2800. That doesn't move the needle know at all. So Robert, instead charging one 75 for 16 underwriters, my proposal would be even open. Let people use that. Let people talk about it. The branding is the most important thing when people start talking about it and you have the development coming online that the stadium and everything else, Dan, Start charging. Nacho Fair, but 20 of dollars in a matter of 12 months. $25,000 a year. That's chump change. I would give the riders the free fare. You're not his money over this and continue bringing up me now the and everything else you guys are doing. One more thing before I conclude you talked Oksana and having change a new software. All that yes, I have no issues with that. If we do find a new operator for sovereign all that and we have to implement the change, are we paying for that? Not be paid yet through the chair. COUNCILMAN R Us your 100% correct. We're not paying for that. And we have the protections in place with Balfour Beatty. >> Ability to force their performance related to this service. So they're responsible for art from soup to nuts and the whole idea is that's why we implemented avoid risk. We implemented with a operate maintain contract and they are to maintain the system for 5 years. Thank you so all the answers. And you guys killing it. So thank you so much. Thank you so much. And I just would like to respond real quickly to our COUNCILMAN R Us comment related for let me move on, ok, good place. >> MR. Gay. Thank you, MR. Chair of the chair right and forward. You did mention about the the grants, the federal and state grants. What is their timelines already established with them? >> Yes. So what happens with the federal grants? We had a timeline to launch the service by SEPTEMBER of 2025. That was our original deadline and we were able to meet that deadline and then there is a useful life requirement that is still being developed by the federal government related to autonomous vehicles on the shuttle's 5 years 100,000 miles. But the other systems that we've put in place, this is new territory and we're working through what would be the appropriate useful life when we talk about software systems that need to be updated or upgraded every so often. Okay. But back to the timeline. So is there an expiration? >> When these grants will expire in, is there any requirements milestones that we we are to meet. >> Yes, there are milestones that we need to meet in terms of the performance of the system. And in terms of the actual useful life of the system, we are still working that through with the federal government. This is such a new technology that they supported, that they're still writing the rules in some cases, but it should not be longer than the original Skyway based on the design. It's not that intensive. >> So that's still being developed in of the Question was poise earlier about a pause really wouldn't impacted if it's still being developed where we can kind of brain bring it all in line with development downtown with the expense exposure. The will be looking at where we don't get way too far ahead of the expenses while I'd be interested in seeing what these >> timelines and milestones are. >> And what the actual >> of. >> You know, requirements that we would have to meet. COUNCILMAN Today, we'll take a look into that in our conversations with the fda. They basically say the clot in terms of the operation. The clock would stop. But if we're talking about a suspension and that talking about that clock in the software example, a challenge that we're facing. But if we're talking about a suspension of the actual surface, the project that MAY be considered a default and that trigger something differently. So please, let me get back to you with that scenario in terms of pausing and defense, essentially stopping the service that think that would be pertinent information that the committee would need to be able to look what, what the >> parameters are legalities to to be able to make educated decisions and was the decision is about this. >> Just a follow-up. So on our be our tease, for example, first Coast Flyer 5 years on vehicles. And 25 years on the entire system. So there are various different components in the system. The vehicles, the software system, the a I c we'll have to take a look at each of those areas and what would be expected useful life that they would want want us comply with. All right. Thank Thank you. Let me go to Councilmember Miller. >> Thank you, MR. Chair. Thanks for coming today. MR. Ford, create being here. And for all you do for our city I want to explore just. A little bit along the lines of what COUNCILMAN Time I was talking about before on the timing. And I know you told us earlier it's its not a matter of if it's a matter of when. And so un team have chosen to to lead in many ways. And I and I think there's lot of goodness and leading. But timing is important and we could go a number of different directions with our thoughts on projections and yeah, choose not to point fingers on who is responsible for. Downtown. Not developing to the point. We think it's sure there are, you know, who was involved in that or whatever. But I think going back and finding out, how do we get here and did we make right decisions and have we made right decisions on timing? Like, for example, the Skyway. How long has the Skyway been in existence and do you happen to know the total amount of funds at all level at all levels that has gone into that Skyway. Do you have rough idea of that? I've asked for that before. But hadn't received that information. So I'm going to bring it up again, given were here today. COUNCILMAN, I don't have that at my fingertips. All make sure by the end of this week you get a full accounting in terms of the Skyway, what was invested by this community and then also, I think what's also important to the operations and money that has to be, you know, use first continue operations and maintenance. The challenge I think we have with that is. The vision of the original Skyway and what would have bought Ben or what would have happened to downtown if was actually completed the full 10 Mile Skyway system MAY have had a significant impact in downtown development. Going back to the question, I think also in terms of suspending the system, I think we can't look at. Yes, the nab the system without connecting the whole on investment. So if we were talk about timing. The timing of our project and becoming a magnet for autonomous vehicle shuttle technology in the United States lead to Holden's interest and Jacksonville and just roughly in terms of the investment would hold on and what they're going to produce over the next 10 to 20 years. It far exceeds any projection of cost for you to see program. So I think we need to look at it and its entire tea and not, I guess, make the mistakes of our past repeat the mistakes well, a night. And that's where I'm going with this. I think almost anyone would say we made a lot of mistakes with the Skyway. >> a lot of dollars. Hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars have been used for that Skyway. My concern is are we getting out ahead of this to quickly out of our need. It's great to be the leader. But when their taxpayer dollars involved. Dana, are we getting what we're paying for are we able to move in such a big city? Are we increasing the abilities to say for a single mother of 5 who has 3 jobs and has to get to various places throughout our big city efficiently. And we get to the schools and other things. At a basic level. Are we enabling that with? This project? For the most part, no or not. And and so. Yes, great bus system to be made. A lot of improvements. They're my concern is in our quest for being the leader in autonomous vehicle. In that space. Are we making mistakes that and quite frankly, many parts of California have made of getting out ahead and being the leader. Well, that's great. And then what do we end up with? My concern is we go to various leadership trips to cities like Charlotte, for example, Charlotte has what a light rail metro system and you spoke about it. You spoke about both of these sales of a streetcar system. Yes, and a lot of options to be able to move around. We've chosen to go from. Go from bosses. And you could add and Skyway. But you know how much value has that been in moving people efficiently has not. So we go from bosses all the way up to autonomous vehicles. To me, I kuwait that to and it MAY not be a fair analogy, but it seems to me we go from fossil fuels, totally the wind and solar. What's our transition plan to get to that? And I think that's what a lot of people are asking. They're asking me a lot of business leaders. Why are we doing this? Why don't we have a light rail? Why don't we have streetcar trolley system? So that's that's what I'm hearing from most business leaders. Wherever I go throughout this city. So how would you respond to that? So first, I would respond with you mention Charlotte. >> Right? Charlie has a population density of 2800. Citizens per Square Mile. They have light rail. Atlanta has a streetcar system. And then the marta system that I was ceo of their density. 35 100. Past U.S. Citizens per Square Mile Miami's off the chart. It's over 12,000 Fort Lauderdale. 37 86 Houston. 38. 42 Jacksonville, 11 79, the density for light rail is not in our community. We have to begin that process in terms of creating that density that makes it viable for that investment. The investment in streetcar and Light Rail will far exceed what worth paying for for the 3 and a half mile. Now the system during a half-mile. Now system came in at 65 million dollars with a control center with a control center, a similar 3 and a half mile system in the United States of Streetcar. Light rail would be somewhere between half a billion dollars to a billion dollars per mile a significantly. If we're talking about ridership now, we really would be under water with that type of investment. I've built light rail. I've built streetcars. We have to have the actual land use development, those pieces of the puzzle to make that actual viable. You mentioned about autonomous vehicles in our bus system. The challenge we have years is we are so sprawled out in terms of our community. We don't look at that. You to see program has just downtown Jacksonville, these autonomous vehicles will help us with the perennial problem of First mile last mile. So using your example of that window or that single parent right now, their biggest challenges from that front door to the 2 miles before they get to actual jta bus stop for us to bring a stop even closer to pick up that individual. The cost is astronomical. So we focus on those high density quarters. But the Thomas vehicle technology is going to deal with the historical problem, a public transportation, which is that first mile last mile and particularly in our community here in Jacksonville with that lack of density so that that's kind of not the scientific answer, but it's really pretty straightforward. We don't have the density the sport that type of infrastructure at this time. Ok? Thank Thank Councilmember Miller account police over 3 minutes. >> Thank you as PRESIDENT, I have a lot to say. In fact, I'm going dive right into the dense the argument we have the density. It is a very foolish argument to bring that up. Mecklenburg County is the county in which Charlotte. North Carolina's in back in 2003, the population of the county was probably about 780,000 people, which is when they voted on the light rail 2007 is when light rail operated. They're probably at about 120,000 people. We as of Duval County. All right. About a million people, Mecklenburg County and Duval County are nearly the exact same size turn in terms of square mile and where people live. We all know there's parts Duval County where no lives. So all you do is look at between the Beltway and extended to the beaches. We certainly have. The density Forte said argument continues to be brought up because we consolidated our city in our county. So you give the impression that our city limits is like a traditional city. We all know it You could fit 45 cities in this county. I do want to make sure they're going to wear, but why we're here. So local option gas tax is how you to see is being funded. And it's about 240 Million. That's in the look. Lots of gas tax, correct? MR. Phase 2 for phase 2. So none of the Elegy, $2 of unspent for the eu to see or for for nabbing up understood. So that gives us as a political body, the opportunity to maybe change the elegy to if we wanted to or perhaps put some more criteria on when jta to spend the money on Elegy $2. I see Councilmember Diamond shaking his head. That something I think I want to talk about later on so I'm also looking at the transit concept alternatives review that was done in 2017, 2018, 2018, 2018 in that we saw that phase 2 is likely to cost around 246 million dollars. Correct. It based on what I'm seeing on the on the Web approximately 2.46 For phase 2. The neighborhoods tension is about 130 million dollars based on what I'm seeing online, perhaps that's changed because of inflation. But around those dollars that's why we're doing the pda need to solidify those numbers. Understood. I just want to make it known that the Kansas City Streetcar spent about 350 million dollars for their 3 and a half mile extension. It is also a free service and it has gotten massively wide attention throughout the United States as being a fix rail service that is very popular amongst the business community and a great way to move people around the concern that I have one of the big ones as you discussed, this is a first mile last mile system that's perfectly fine. But for us as policymakers, we need to ask ourselves for a system that is so limited in scope. Do we want to put in this amount of money? I don't think I have a problem. Abby, I only got a problem with the to see concept in general. It's the amount of public dollars going into it. That is my concern. Atlanta came to look at it for their belt line. Not as a mass transit system. Japan has the most advanced mass transit system. There's no way they're using it to be like, I mean, mode of transportation. That's probably for some air park stuff like that. I do want to finalize my time here by saying at one point we discussed that there was a designed potentially are always the concept to get to the airport to downtown potentially the airport down Daytona are some along those lines. Like to see what that design looks like. Again, as policymakers would be really important for us to see what other corridors or available and what that would look likes, that we could potentially plan if we want to move either way from Abbey or into something else. That's something I just very much like to see. And I hope my compatriots grit. Thank you, Council Ripley. So it's back to MAY just a couple of comments before go back for the second round. Yeah, I'm a big believer in the form of government that we have and are authorities that we have. Weve got board of directors overall are 40's my faith. And that system was shaken in 2019. Couple of us up here went through h# # in 2019 in 2020. I and I have people from the media call me all the time about. This project. All aspects of jta and my response consistently as they have a board of directors. That is in place that needs to ask the right questions as we go through this process, they need to not go along to get along as what happened in 2019. And I just can't emphasize that enough that this board be asking not just these questions but all sorts of other questions to make sure they are comfortable. >> As we move forward with this project, I just can't emphasize that enough. It's hard for us. Is as legislators to get into the weeds as they should be getting into the weeds. And I just wanted to say that I just got a couple of other things. I want to mention. I know this. This project is in place in Las Vegas. Correct? I'm not the type system. Is that correct? Yes, they are working on a similar project. They could receive their bill grant the same time we did. >> Okay. And they've got a strip of hotels that go with which makes sense with all the stops that they would picking up gamblers, people like tourists up and down the strip is that I mean, that makes sense to me. They're actually using it for a medical quarter, connecting some hospitals. It's not being used on the script. Now. Oh, wow. Okay. I was misinformed. That. I'm sorry. That rain. Okay. I was misinformed. I'm sorry about that. Ok, let's go back to council member Dimon and let's put 5 minutes on the clock. Mr Chair. Again, I know it's not fun. Sitting up there about a. >> a lot when all folks are coming at. You. So I mean, I try to be really plainspoken about this. Obviously, I would like you to pull the plug just to do it now to say this is too much money, too big of a risk. I'd like you to pull the plug. I don't think you're going I think you to go ahead and do this 30% design and then go to the public. How much as a 30% is eyeing a cost for phase a total getting to 30% design. 6.7 million. So 6.7 million plus 6 65 9 rat. Like 70 71 million how much state money have we got for the phase one so far? Actually in the bank. Phase. One about 7 million say they've actually given us the money. Yes, and federal government has given us the total check the tone and said there's like 5 million short now with the state. Yes. What does that do to come once they do their final acceptance on the vehicle? So they've actually approved all of the other infrastructure. >> And they're waiting on the vehicles. Got it. You know, we've got a inner local agreement. Goes along with what council incluso I was discussing unit. >> We signed a contract on behalf of the city with jta for this list of projects on there is the you to see. You know, it's a 2 party agreement, right? Both sides have to agree if City Council comes back and says, look, we don't really love the you to see we'd like to take that 400 million dollars instead. Look at this billion dollars worth of projects to repave roads to do all these other. All this other work around the county is jta going to agree to modify inner local agreement so that we pave those roads and do that instead of you to see. >> That's not for me as the ceo to speak to our that's the jta board of directors. They were the ones who approve that partnership with the City Council in terms of the local option, gas tax and our list of projects versus your list of projects. If we take go back to that local option gas tax, it was additional $0.06 evenly split between the jta and the city of Jacksonville. So our understanding was our list of priorities was our list of priorities. You as a city had yours and we were can't walked hand-in-hand with you to the taxpayers with that combined list of projects. >> Yeah, 3 I remember I was there. I voted no. Did not want to raise the gas tax on folks, but it doesn't really answer the question the ceo of jta or You're gonna find us on modifying our inner local agreement on this list. If we want to pull the plug on the to see. >> I serve at the pleasure of the jta board of directors, but I wouldn't be doing my job. Is your co to not state the economic impact of the hole on plant that is actually looking at that same contribution as a reason for them to set up shop here in Jacksonville. Shares saw this project as a Lighthouse project for the United States. That's why they are going to be investing over 20 year period with their plan over 1.8 billion dollars economic impact to this community. So I think when we talk about this project, we've got to be careful not to look at today in terms of ridership in terms of the technology today, but really look over the horizon at the future of mobility. And more importantly, it's clear with the whole lot plan arriving here in Jacksonville. They signed their term agreement last week. You've already won. >> So through the chair. It is our. >> Doing the you to see he's on a whole long moving. I mean, are these things inextricably tied? I understand that there MAY be like I very, strict. A bully tied together on can go to any other facility in the United States. They have their parent company has plants in Michigan plants in South Carolina. In fact, the incentive that was thrown their way from South Carolina was far greater than what was thrown to them as it relates to the state of Florida. But they chose to co-locate with what they believe was a light House project. You to see project in addition to our universities, our naval veterans that retire here, the technical capability along with this signature project, they felt it was worth them, investing 100 million dollars to build a plant in Jacksonville, Florida. In addition to our port as well as the railroads. And that's why their current site has a railroad spur. It is a major play with jta and the eu to see project as the magnet and cases. It's really It is really wasn't here yet. But it's a massive leap of faith right? >> They come here. They had this economic impact. You get the technology figure out the software you figure out and you get a waiver. You we have the density. The building happens downtown. All those things have to go right for this to be a good investment for the city. All those. I want That's why why would a city of a million people in a 2 billion dollar budget make that risk? That's that's the crux of this that I'm just struggling with. Why not just use them? And we know about. And and that's tried and true. That's easy. Thank you. Council. Okay. Council. More areas for 5 minutes. I think you MR. Ford MR. Chair Lower unit answer. You know, I saying I think when I started this process are joined. The jta was all about this leadership team. >> Providing our community the best mobility options we could provide world class. Again, I state that this technology is coming. We can choose to go to older technologies, more costly, less flexible. You know, we talked about street cars and rails and things that nature. But once you build it, you can't move it. And I think in this particular case, these technologies give us the flexibility to adapt to scale up the scale down and also to deal with one of the largest cost drivers. And I want to be very careful with this because I started out as a union employee and I support the unions and our bus drivers. That is something we're dealing with nationally because we know this technology is coming. But our biggest cost driver in a per mile operation per mile per hour is the person. That's why everybody scrambling to embrace these autonomous vehicles because it gives us opportunity provide much more coverage for the same budget costs that we've been experiencing with conventional transportation. So, you know, the thing is as a community, we got to make decision collectively. I agree 100%. We have to recent respect. COUNCILMAN Diamonds perspective, COUNCILMAN Police's perspective, that needs to be part of this debate and discussion. But I think we have an opportunity and we are ready the first in the nation. And that has paid off with this whole on investment. Ok? Why not a for more questions? All right. They're humans 30 seconds. Number one. Is this the best option for transportation needs when you guys were exploring different options? >> Was this the best of the best that you guys came up with? And I need these answers quick Yes, we did the homework. We did the work in. This is something that the state and the federal government All right. Have you done polling with a community to what is a needs like you came up with? Answer was yes. How did you come up with that on to the you pull the community, community say, hey, we need Thomas here in downtown in the 3 and half mile stretch. How'd come up with this? Yeah, actually did focus groups and we actually tested the vehicles adjacent to the EverBank Stadium for couple of years and the before and after surveys supported not only autonomous vehicles but more of them. And fast can we do it again? >> 3rd is if the plug is pulled as MR. Diamond and 2 to 2. Forget about using the money that was invested. Forget about that. Got a view of things what can jta due to enhanced transportation needs in our community like? Thank the plug is pulled. What are you guys going to do? You can continue with the conventional buses and all that order. Are you say, okay? Well, we had a second project that we really light and this is the route we're going to go like, is there a backup plan of the blood is pulled or not? >> No, our plan would be just more conventional buses at this juncture, we could continue to study other types of modes and present them to our board. >> Okay. Because I know that my colleague Diamond MR. Dimon mentioned, you know, Uber as an example obviously that's gonna happen, right? Because we're give people free vouchers for whatever harmony, much money that was. But one needs has jt identified in our community and that's where I'm asking, like, what is a backup? And we're not gonna rise to people for free in rich return to to pull in putting the plug on this. But buses is what you're saying. So world class city and innovate a city on the on horizon. And we're gonna go back to conventional buses. There's no other innovative ideas. >> The follow-up COUNCILMAN R Us. That's why everyone is flocking to Jacksonville. Around the world to look at what we've developed here because they see it as a future for mobility in their cities. Yeah. >> So I'm going to and I want when I get back in the queue. But I'll state what I stated earlier. I think colleagues what jt is doing w