Duval DOGE Special Committee

Let's go ahead and get started. We have any public comment. Cards. Okay. What you get that. He called the Committee meeting to order. >> Let's start with introductions to my far left. >> Nancy Council research, Mary Post Office of General Counsel. >> Brian Parkes counselor's office Taylor Council auditor. Morning Chris Miller at large group 5 Ron Salem group, 2 at large morning rally areas, District 11. >> My gay district, 2. Okay. Thank you guys for being here today. Let's go to public comment. First to have one green card, MISTER John. Please keep it on. The topic place. I. 2 minutes >> I am John Jay New knee. >> Doge our waterways. You know, you know, I was just at the j e a finance governance notice committee meeting. You know, Jacksonville's, exceptional anglers, fwc to play out the Fish and Wildlife Commission. No, it's the state of Florida. Fwc fishing with conservatives. Doctor Ron Salem Twenty-twenty 403, to 5, 2025, 0, 0, 1, 9, 2025, 0, 5, to 2. >> Fwc fishing with Katie Fishing with Carlucci. >> Fwc fishing with carrico fwc fishing with curriculum class Duval County Public Schools Twenty-twenty 5, 0, 8, 6, 7, And you know, I'm just down to a minute and, you know, I just want to share this. This is the joint meeting of the Duval County Public Schools and the Jacksonville City Council. This is Dozier stuff. You know, you know, I'm just glad that COUNCILMAN Dimon and, you know, it had a fishing pole What we're going to be doing is where marketing to the world and to the state of Florida and doze. Like I said, Dozier waterways were getting absolutely crushed. Here's the reason, Ali. And she joked, quote, book. You know, the biggest takeaway in this. Is that public access. Our waterways is the worst ever. And other counties are reaching out. And we will. Sending our money to other counties because we did not do hours. Thank you for listening. >> Thank you, MR. New knee. Let's continue on the agenda let's let's get an update on our a group Health review from the Bailey group. Ladies, if you'd introduce yourselves when you come forward and if I can, just briefly give an update. I guessed it was in mid DECEMBER where we finally got all the documents signed delivered 2 ogc, cetera, so that the Florida blue data could be released to the Bailey group. They have fee virtually been working over the last 3 or 4 weeks to analyze those claims. And this will be an update on where they are. And we're expecting a very significant update. FEBRUARY 18th, which is a Wednesday when we will meet because of the Monday PRESIDENT's day of that week. So ladies, he almost all of our thunder, but it's okay. That's I'm Sabrina. A Bears. Cherie been yea and we are with the Bailey Curry. >> We were here a couple months ago to talk about at the onset of our contract with you all to talk about what we were going to work on and now that we're starting to get our arms around the data starting to get some results, trickle back in. We just wanted to spend a few minutes letting you know where we are and to further pinpoint when you could expect results from us because I know that's important part. So you MAY remember we were tasked with 5 specific scope of work projects. Analyzing the pharmacy. Analyzing the stop loss contracts and review. Study your medical contributions and bringing that recommendations, including salary tears, benchmarking that sort of thing analyzing your benefits, eligible population. You have some subsidiaries that are on your plan. And is that appropriate stuff like that will be looking at that? And then the medical repricing. As part of it. We as we jumped in and we got the data we decide to prioritize 2 of these projects. The pharmacy analysis and the medical repricing projects, mainly because if you like is into first of all that. If you decide to make changes on those, it it's, you know, like a longer turnaround to make decisions and make the changes. So we wanted to jump on those items as quickly as possible. Sure you get to >> You just to kind of give you an idea of what we have been working on as mentioned, we prioritize >> pharmacy and the repricing, the pharmacy. We have taken it out to market. >> And are also reviewing the contract in detail currently. >> And the pbm, the clinical programs that are available for >> pharmacy benefit management program as well as something that we're looking in-depth thought. >> And we will be able to bring a lot of that information back to you. As far as the repricing is concerned. >> What we've done is we are sending the data to variety of tp isn't carriers and asking them to review the caught the claims and tell us how much those same claims would have costs. Had you been under a different carrier and kind of comparing those that we can see whether or not your current carriers, the right fit for you. >> And you enter to back him. We have, by the way of the results, the FEBRUARY 18th meeting is where we're going to focus on the all the pharmacy results. The contract review. >> And the findings that we had as as well as additional recommendations. We are seeing significant savings in and what's coming back. So I think you'll be very happy. I want to throw out any numbers that because like to be all buttoned up before we do that. But the FEBRUARY 18th meetings going bring some really good information. So I think you'll be happy. And then in MARCH, we're going to be ready to follow up right away at that MARCH shows meeting for him to talk about the medical repricing. As far as Florida player, right partner. And I know they've been a great partner, their partner. They're good partner for us, too. But, you know, it makes sense to look at the home market and make sure that you're you're in the right place. >> And then in APRIL, we anticipate came back again, reviewing the project overall and any follow-ups that might need to be reviewed together. And then we will also be presenting our findings on the benefit. Eligibility populations and whether or not all of the entities that are being covered are the right ones to be covering possibly providing options. And that and that mark in that sense as well. >> In MAY. >> We MAY not me in MAY because that will be kind of a focus time period for us to be able do some of the final pieces that will need to do in JUNE to present in JUNE. And that will be including route sending the information to our actuaries that they can provide us with budget numbers that We ix. We would recommend to you all as far as how much. >> The the costs should be. The funding should be for the plans. And then we'll also at that point in time be developing the contribution strategies will be specifically looking at a variety of different ways, too. The employees contribute, including the salary tiered program that has been requested. 2 new finish up. >> And so then we'll present all that in JUNE. And then AUGUST OCTOBER, we have to stop project. It needs to come last because you have to have the most experience as you MAY know, in order to to get final. Final quotes on your stop loss program. So it always has to follow later in the year but we will take that out the full market in and look at the contract all of those things as well for the stop loss piece and then that will round out our our work with you all in. We will all At the end forward. >> Okay. Let me just mention the Doe's Committee is one that is appointed by the PRESIDENT. And so this committee, if nothing changes would expire JUNE 30 of I would anticipate that the next PRESIDENT Would extended in some type of format so we could finish this particular project nothing else. But I just keep that in mind. >> Right. And we knew that. But we know we can't quite finish it. So. Yeah, we'll we'll continue. Our work on us to do it and make sure we finish everything we committed to. And then also there MAY be other things we don't know about that deadlines that you have to hit it. And so if we need to move some of this around to make sure that you are hitting deadline, Johnny, when you need information from us, just make us aware of that and we will re prioritize things as you mean. We are flexible in that. >> Well, should also mention I'm glad to see and a brush a's in the audience I think Anna would be a a vital person for us to get this data to particularly as we get into the budget process of what changes can be made in the 26 27 budget. Because as we all know, this committee will make recommendations to the to the to the administration and it's up to them to to accept or are not accept any recommendations we come forward with. So I'm glad they're participating in listening. Welcome. Any feedback did that she has to me or to you and we're helping happy to work with her. However, you don't need us to work to make sure that we get you timely. >> Information, ok, let me go councilmember areas. >> Thank you, chair. I was actually just going to stay the same thing in order to affect the 26 27 budget cycle. We would like to see this information prior to the I know you said the OCTOBER. That's AUGUST through OCTOBER timeline, ideally before OCTOBER, preferably before SEPTEMBER of possible. Northwest, truly, you know, make recommendations for the for the 26 27 fiscal year budget. And as COUNCILMAN Saying stated, you know us, some of us MAY not be here on the next integration of doge. So ideally, I would to see this final recommendation before the year ends. But I know there's a lot of work to do on your end. So I don't know that something that's possible or not. But at least as we complete our fiscal 25 26 year. This presentation would've been nice to have done it by the end of JUNE. I d I. >> And we should have mentioned this to you. But once the actuary numbers are down, they make assumptions about the stop loss. I mean, get pretty close anyway. And so you don't have to wait through OCTOBER to make decisions. They have You know, it's professionally actuarily calculated. So your decisions cannot be made beforehand. Stop was contract. Just have to have a perfect amount of experience to finalize. So and we can get. >> Quotes for those, but they'll be preliminary and not from Intel. They have the data. There are certain degree a certain about why that has to be done. But that's the only piece that we will have to work on after the fact everything else will be done before the energy end of >> I mean, keep in mind and I think, you know this the budget is that OCTOBER one to SEPTEMBER 30th, the benefit plan is JANUARY one through DECEMBER. 31. So there's there's a difference there that will have to a sausage and there MAY be things that we can make recommendations for for this budget and others MAY be the 27 28 budget. Sure. Just depending on the time line. >> I think a lot of the things that you're going to find where cover some savings are going to be things that we are talking about. Even next month. The as for example, pretty substantial savings that we're seeing. >> We would. I know the expenses in pharmacy. So I welcome your analysis. Councilor bowling. You are in the queue. But did you drop out? You are not okay. Any other questions? >> Ok, thank you. Thank you. Ok, let me move Update on our telehealth Councilmember Diamond, chair of that committee. Thank you, MR. Chair Good update. Actually, regionally. We sent out a number of requests to write site to telescope home to the city >> to the fire department say, hey, can you give us these documents? Answer these questions and good news is they came back. They gave us thousands and thousands of documents and answer most of the questions. So then we've had outside counsel going through all the documents and, you know, coating them doing what they're doing. They're almost done with that review that they're not done already. And they came back with a series of questions at the most important one. I thought actually maybe less interesting is that there are a bunch of redactions from the mayor's production. And so we've asked the mayor sent us the unredacted. There's no privilege to redact documents to the city council. If talk about city business, show it to us. Coincidentally, so did tell us they both won, cut them off and one redacted them. And so there's there obviously coordinating. So we just say explain this coordination, tell us who's working on these productions. Why are you reacting stuff that is predominantly text messages yet text messages. So we asked for those. So as soon as we get answers to, those will be able to say, here's what their explanation was made is a very innocent one will seem to be able to read what's unredacted so that's one thing. Second, we have follow-ups on just kind of like the very practical responses we got, which you back? More questions. And so those are out. I expect we'll get those back in the next couple of weeks and then we'll have a chance to do some sentences here as a committee to be like, okay, here's what our outside council is found here. The areas of interest here, the you know, kind of like illegal kind of issues. And then there's a kind of like that policy kind of issues and we can distinguish between those. Then I imagine that the subcommittee will come out with a report report then be delivered to this committee, which can then adopted as its own and if the state attorney general or somebody else wants to take it and run with it, that's up to them. Lot of reading. To say the least. Ok? Thank you. Councilmember Diamond, the 2% laps. Just to summarize, I'm gonna go to MISTER Taylor. >> But if you recall, we took 2% of the budget for controllable costs and put it below the line budget. But below the line. And we've had one request thus far to replenish those dollars. And it was from the inspector general's office and you might recall we passed that legislation at a recent meeting to reestablish their. I think it was $27,000. MISTER Taylor, can you update us on that? >> Yes, through the chair to the committee. You're absolutely right. That legislation passed that was 27,007 80. That was restored to the inspector general's office. That is the only one that has come to the committee other than a couple inquiries we have not had. We've not received any other paperwork. You'll recall we have that standard for middle come to us and then we'll review any departments that we get. We have not received any to date but had a couple inquiries about the process and the numbers and that sort of thing. So nothing to bring to you at this point. >> You might recall that was 4.8 million dollars that was put into that. That 2% correct. For I'm sorry, correctly placed MISS Tyler. >> Is there to the chair 5.8 million 0.8 million excuse me. I think there MAY be a desire to transfer money around within the department's vs. >> Coming to but we'll we'll have to see what happens. But thus far, we're in pretty good shape. Okay. Councilmember areas you're recognized. >> Thank you. As a ms Taylor's. So we've only had one department come to us and no other inquiries like you just mentioned. What would happen? I JUNE 30th or 31st. What the remaining 5.7, 7, 2, like COUNCILMAN Salem said. And I mean there is any transfers or with that money does go to to wear and what can we use that money for? Can we put it like the reserves, for example, to pay off some debt? It's not used. >> Through the chair to councilmember areas so that money's not used. Let's say the departments are able to they MAY have to hold. They can seize. They MAY have to find certain ways that they can still balance their budgets within their departments. At the end of the year. That fund is a whole for the general fund depending on what that overall favorable variance. In essence, goes to reserves for simplistic terms. So these unspent dollars, if the department does not come back, you'll see it go to reserves. Because it's really it's it's part. You didn't cut from the budget. You parked it in a designated contingency. So if that remains unspent, it's like any other expenditure that you have that you don't spin. So it would be a positive that year and with it would automatically go to reserves. However, can we also follow just nation to relocate that towards some debt? Because because that we've been talking about some pain, some debt obligations, is that something that we would be able to do or do we have to let go first to reserves and then we have to try to pull it from there to go pay off some debt. >> That here to councilmember areas you could pull it. I don't know if timing Wise departments MAY be waiting to see which is which is reasonable for them to do to see if there's a way that they can need it. So it MAY be a timing thing that we MAY start getting some at some point. Mention on the non departmental piece, which is 2.7 so that half of that not quite happened. 2.7 million out of that is in your city wider. Your non departmental area. And in some discussions there, maybe we get into talking about the debt savings. I had mentioned this previously issue Kate was brought up previously on some of the nonprofits. And I had said, you know, well, there's other cost savings that MAY be able to cover to wear. They MAY come to the council in via legislation. They could do that. We'll talk about some of the debt savings number we get to the topic there. But course, that would be council decision on, you know, approving things like that. But technically you could. It's parked in in a designated contingency, in essence this lapse these dollars. Council could do. We just don't know the status and time wise. They want to get a little more time for departments to know because while they could need it this year because they hold open positions or things like that doesn't mean that they can meet these kind of things on a permanent basis. So they MAY not come forward this year. Thinking we'll get those dollars back next year temporarily. They MAY be able to handle something, but that doesn't mean it's a permanent ongoing thing that they could potentially live with as a department. Thank you. Yeah, I think I think we should sit tight and see what happens over the next few months. >> And keep in mind, we we perform this task through the budget process. >> Through the Finance Committee went to the council at the end. So if if something was to continue to have to go through that same process I think we should kind of see how this one goes and take a look at that for future budgets. Okay. The next the next topic is a new topic that the council auditors have brought to me as an area of cost savings how debt is budgeted. Saul turn it over to MISTER Taylor. And there's a hand out in front of you. >> thank you, MR. CHAIRMAN threw the chair, the committee of 2 pages before you one has some numbers on it. And one has just kind of a summary of the points that wanted to discuss with the the committee here. And as the CHAIRMAN Indicated, we were talking with him. Recognize that this committee is handling efficiency issues, budgetary issues. And this is something we were looking at during the budget, but not not quite ready to say, hey, here's action that can be taken. But if you look at the numbers on the chart, you'll see the total budget for debt versus the actions that have come in and you'll see within the last 4 years you'll see that ramp up the variance there. That's a positive. So those are dollars where they've come in. Debt service payments have come in less than budget. So you have budgetary savings in. 21. 22, you'll see that large number of 22 million at the top right there. That was because a refinancing occurred in those dollars basically fell into reserves at that time. But you'll see starting in 20 to 23, there were 6 million less the next year. 7.8 million the recent year. 24 25 10.3 million. You'll recall a portion of that. I believe it was 5 million was put towards the group helped fun to help stabilize that fund where some savings were utilized so every year when we tried to review the debt that's budgeted. Of course, we've got to make debt service payments. So we're pretty conservative on, you know, you can't go so tight that we're going to come back to you and say, you know, they're going to have to file legislation, the administration to make debt payments that doesn't look good. That's not good for anybody. If we're not meeting our debt payments. So there's many very abilities that go into determining, of course, for think of it as you have prior the events, you know, those payments each year. But every year you also issue new debt and you approved that through a piece of legislation saying you get an idea, you kind of see it to fold. You authorize it in the budget and you say go forth. We're going to do these capital projects with that. We're allowing the appropriation. You go out and spend. But every year you still see piece of legislation that says this is the debt with we're going issue this year. We're going to go out. We're now spending on these projects. So you see it in both Times Council approves that the authorized them to be able Use debt in the future to issue it. And then when they are actually planning to issue 8, you see that again through a piece of legislation. So councils heavily involved in approving those types things. You MAY recall from the prior administration are a prior. See if, though there was always the saying if it ain't spent in a lint, we don't do like in the Better Jacksonville plan where get was issued and we were paying all those interest. Costin projects were slow and we weren't, you know, it took time to get them done. We were paying all these debt costs. Now the model is. Council authorizes says we're going to allow debt to be appropriate department goes out and spends public works parks, all those departments do the projects. And then at the end of the year, you'll see in them MAY to JULY time frame a piece of legislation that comes through that says. And it's still a projection at that point because you know what, you've spent from OCTOBER to MAY and then you're kind of having to estimate what are we going to spend the rest of the year on these projects? Would we think we're going to have to go out issue for debt? That legislation is spy old. Council approves that they then go out usually in AUGUST SEPTEMBER time frame out to the market and actually issue that debt. So it's kind of a timing issue with the budget that we have to allow for some flexibility because we don't know exact get numbers. We can't pinpoint that. But what we're trying to do and taking a look at this is maybe better focus and in conversation with the CHAIRMAN Heap said okay for us, we reached out to the finance department. We met with the treasurer and the was not on the call that we had a virtual meeting. With budget office. I'm sorry. She with the budget officer. Was there ms more year just to kind of see, can we can we get a little more focus to where we don't have these large savings that MAY be better directed towards other items that the council they want to make policy decision MAY want to reduce the millage MAY want to do things that they get. You is lean of a budget is possible so the budget is based on usually a 20 year payback of debt. And we're talking about the new debt each year. Usually about a 5% to 5.0, 2, 5%, recently on the interest rates. That's how the budget put together. The actual that cost. Can be a little different. And that's the more recent like the one AUGUST SEPTEMBER. Typically it's being fixed out over 30 years. So then you have less debt cost each year and you have the savings that were seen. You can also have where the payments are not smooth. It's not like a mortgage payment. You can have principal payments front loaded. You can have them back middle where he MAY have higher payments so that can change what we're looking at from a budget standpoint. You also there's commercial paper than on a short-term basis is used and then that gets fixed out becomes part of that annual that costs the following year see MAY on a short-term basis. Know that and we don't have exact numbers on the commercial paper amounts to kind of we're again, it's a budget and we're trying to estimate as best as possible as well as the finance Department, actual interest rates, of course, can come in differently. And that's a lot of times what we'll change that to where you MAY have a savings because you can you can get better interest rate than what's budgeted. On existing debt. You can always this council has seen it where believe it was breeze airway. And Jay, you the first time with the law school that was funded with debt savings in the one year where they were refinanced and we had lower interest rates. And so some of that debt savings was put towards other priorities. So there's a lot of variables that come into play that can change that budget and get you a different since we are seeing these kind of take up these the savings, in essence of want to call it over budgeting. But but it's it's. We don't want to allow this huge amount to build where if we can change things to get that a little bit tighter. Also, when you're looking at the forecast, we recognize that a lot of those numbers, you know, it MAY seem harsh or at first and then you're seeing this debt numbers come in less. That's because the timing of spending and wind projects actually get up and running. So it affects those multi your forecast that you're trying to go with as well to say, okay, where are we going to be in the next 4 years? That be 3 schedule. Comes into play with all these debt service payments to. The model is set up for. Basically if you start a project, what historically has been put into place. Is that? And they budget for 50%. You're one of the cost of the project. 25% the next year, 15% and then 10%. So basically taking 4 years to complete that project. That's been the model we've had discussions with the administration as well on. Do those need to be looked at and I know the budget officer indicated they're going to be meeting with public works and parks to really get it a tighter handle on what's it taking? What is the spend on these projects to we need to change that. So we are getting good numbers. Not only for current budget year but going forward when when we're looking at all those projections so that you have as good as possible, even though its estimates for those future years for planning purposes for the council so that you know what you are expecting in the future that, you know, hey, we're going to have being deficits, you know, based on be three-year, things are looking better. So that gives you some better numbers. Of course, interest rates are much more difficult to predict in the future. You know, 3 years out versus 2 months out. So that comes into play on that. 3 schedule as well. All of this to say we do have some recommendations for the committee to consider. Based on our discussions with the administration. And of course, the mayor proposes the budget. It comes as you know, they they propose it and then council can certainly make changes but get has to be met. Debt payments have to be met. Debt is intended to be put over the useful life of the assets. So these are some suggestions, though, and I. The financier was very receptive. They are looking have been looking at things as well to try to see how can they just things recommendation is just to consider budgeting. And this is for, you know, the administration to take into account as well. Consider budgeting in projecting based on 30 or 25 years, rather than that 20 year when in general they are. They are doing 30 year increments. That's kind of creating that savings. That we're seeing, particularly in the last few years. If you know, on going back to the chart on the numbers, that second chart will show you just keeping the same interest rate at 5%. If you issued, let's say we're getting into these larger cip 400 million just having that tenure differential in the payback of principle. You have a 6 million saving generated right away. So, you know, you have that buffer that we're trying to get a little more focused to kind of narrow that. So we don't have. A large savings or if council, you know, wants to make different priority decisions were not. Over budgeting debt. Per se. So just that change in the in the time frame can certainly adjust it. And a second recommendation is what we've seen this year is that if there's no principal payment in your one of new debt, which is what appears that the new issuance from this past AUGUST, SEPTEMBER time frame, then not to budget for it because that immediately provides that buffer. So we want to ensure that that is not included in the budget. If the plan is structuring that debt. Which is not uncommon. To say. But usually we have seen principal show up in the first year. So that's a little bit, I guess, uncommon. But we want to make sure that the budget mirrors that like if you know you're planning on going out and your year. Not going to have principle don't budget for it. Don't put that additional buffer in there. That doesn't need to be. Within the budget. And then this is complete policy decision for the council. This is just internally. We're always conservative in the council auditors office. And so recommendation for you to consider is if there is any savings potentially. Consider a code change that would allow for if their savings within the that debt payment line item in that the fund overall is still remember. We always think of the fund a raw. You can have a savings in one line but still have revenue problems and that MAY offset it. But for the council to consider putting those dollars automatically towards pay go rather than debt. So reducing overall that when there is debt savings, complete policy decision. But just something we discussed internally to help mitigate since the cip zarba coming so large. You're the year. I believe that's everything I wanted to MR. Parks Unknown if he wanted to add, but we're happy to answer any questions that you might have on this. >> How start off with a couple questions? I compare this to my house. I MAY have a 30 year mortgage, but but I'm trying to pay off that mortgage early about putting more money if I have a 20 year mortgage, I'm paying more. But in the long term, I'm saving money. If I heard you correctly, you're advocating going with a 30 year payment versus a 20 year and if we did it in 20 years, yes, our our payments are higher. But in the long term we're going to save money. Am I missing something here? >> No, sir, not quite what I what I'm saying. What we're saying is that the budget is usually built around a 20 year where you make more payments. But generally what we see based on the useful life of the assets, they are going out when they actually issue the debt. They're doing 30 year. So it creates an immediate savings >> and over budget, in essence. When they know generally 30 years, the more common time frame. So. In essence, we're creating a larger budget than is necessary. We're not saying 20 years, not a good thing. I'm with you. You pay off more. You save interest cost in the end. But what we're saying is that the 2 are not nearing each other. So when they budget, they generally budget for 20, which creates a larger number. The expenditure that when they go out and issue the debt, it's generally 30 year. And so you have that immediate savings that buffer that we're trying to get a little more laser focused on the budget and try to to get that more near road. >> So are you suggesting that be consistent that? 30 years? That's what's budgeted. And then when they go out to finance it, they go out for 30 years. That correct? >> Yes, or through the chair. And again, it's based on the useful life. Sue in general. If we know that we're going to do 30 year issuances or even make it. 25 so that you narrow that amount of of over budgeting, in essence, they were just trying to mirror the 2 together so that you don't create that huge savings and know from the start that you have the savings and let me bring up up. >> a second point that all go to MR. Boylan's in the Queue. I have become very frustrated with my colleagues as well as administration that were just as guilty as any time. We can find some savings. Boom. We're out there trying to spend it. And so and we've all done it. So ordinance that would take those savings and immediately put it towards pay. Go in the future years is very attractive to me. And that would stop this rating of those dollars for other uses so that that's that's something we could do today. I'm assuming in ordinance to do that. Is that correct? MISS Taylor? >> Through the through the chair or to the chair? Yes, art 3rd recommendation. If that something that you if that's where your head, I understood you correctly, that would require legislation and that would be an ordinance code change. A lot of these debt under the city debt management, part 5 of one, 10. There is their code requirements related to debt. And if that's something that the council desires, you could do that. >> And and I would welcome MISS To come forward. At some point, if she'd like to or some combination of the 2 of you to come up, if you'd like MISTER, MR. Boylan. Thank you. Thank you, MR. CHAIRMAN, appreciate. How do I follow up on your comment? I agree. 100%. >> You know, we need to be disciplined as a council as well. Particularly like the fact we have a strategic initiative dollars available to us. Got the cba dollars available this particular year. Don't see any reason why we can't be more disciplined in that in that context. And the idea of 30 I get particularly if you're looking at probably daunting budgets for the foreseeable future, we can always readjust the pc, you know, part of end of the rainbow kind of feel to it. My my question relates specifically to completion grants. We precluded from utilizing our borrowing make a payment on it because, again, we don't have any control over won. Those grants are going to needed. The last presentation we saw from Philip on those commitments dropped dramatically from the one prior. So I can can you speak to the viability of using debt to honor completion grants? >> Through the chair to Councilmember Boylan, I would never recommend it from the position that I'm in as council auditor just from a costin point, the interest costs that you've got to build into that to cover each of these. I really would hesitate to see the city do that and get us in a position of paying interest on those incentives. >> So and I appreciate your point. And I and I'm saying, can we? But that's another story. The issue is this, you know, we budget next year with the anticipation that we're going to have to spend 300 million dollars on completion grant commitments. Do we put that in the budget and then those that never materialize during the course of that fiscal year. I guess is the point I'm trying to make it I'd like to see the peco just as we do with the cip projects Zippy's. >> here to Councilmember Boylan among the incentives have been handled a lot of different ways. Separate legislation has been done in a lot of these have been funding out of operating reserves because they are one time payments and you're using a onetime bucket to do that. We've also had conversations in the past of the budget. You know. 10 million, 20 Million. Do you get to a point where you have recurring stream? The only thing is to your point of a lot of these get delayed and do you build up a fund then that has a large to use the vice PRESIDENT's term a pocket of value. Do you have a lot of reserve sitting over in another fund that then you maybe need to claw back? So there's that there's a balance to that. But there MAY need to be consideration for kind of getting it in the budget. See know that you have these. 10 to 20 million every year. Part of that recurring and perhaps that's the way to structure it. >> To put it into an operating reserve to say we've got this commitment out there like it for this this year and recognize it's going to come out of the operating. These are if necessary. Just trying to fantasy. You do that difficult years. They're making other sacrifices to our service to constituents makes it challenging to say we know it's out there. We know it's coming. It's like going to be this year. And if we know for a fact is going to be this year via the building is 90% complete, et cetera. We put into the budget kind of feel to it. I'm just trying to be flexible like just like do at home because as COUNCILMAN Say, London in this process MAY be looking at it as a way to say we have this obligation that MAY be hitting us this year and recognize we MAY be tapping into the operating reserve are creating, as you said, a pocket of dollars as part of the budget standing number 10, 15 million dollars. Just push it in there every year and then know we've got available to us to pay down those commitments. Thank you, MISTER Chair. I'd like to respond to that. If I can. I would be adamantly opposed to barring to play completion grants. I I think. >> That is a nonstarter for personally. Number 2. The downtown committee that Councilmember Joe Carlucci chairs. We're having a lot of discussions about incentives. And where downtown is today versus where it was 5 years ago. I think we all would agree that downtown is moving and there's a lot of construction going on and weather we can at some point get out of the completion grant business and and possibly use loans for a period of time versus completion grants and rely on read grants more but hopefully at some point will be on my time on the council probably everybody here these projects can can can be completed on their own without any incentives. So and so that's one point. Number 2, everybody now brings to our downtown meeting some legislation that I sponsored 3 or 4 years ago, which puts all these completion grants on chart and there for each individual year. So we know now and we didn't know that before when we were passing completion grants and had no idea what how would impact 2 years, 3 years, 4 years from now. Now we have that very clearly in front of us and we can look at it. So we know what we have to come up with this year. And what we need to come up next year and the year after if we don't add anything to it. So I don't like using reserves to pay those off. But but and I challenge the administration. This one future ones to try to include that in their budget. But I would be much more comfortable with using some. Some reserves are says boring. The money we have done a fantastic job. The administration as well as I think the Council of Building up our reserves. Not if you look back 10, 12 years ago, what our reserves were then versus what they are today. A lot of that was covid money that we're able to to utilize the buildup or reserves. But I think there are in good shape now to where we can. We can use some of that if need I MAY follow up very quickly and in some idea was a good one. I was just the but I do think >> And I think we've got an idea there to say, hey, how do we recognize that? And those numbers have changed dramatically in terms of those completion commitments. They do fluctuate over when they're doing that process. That's only I'm suggesting is how do we if we embedded into the budget at the expense of something else. But it isn't going to happen in that fiscal year. How do we address that? That's all I'm asking. >> I see there, our finance team has come forward to want I want to come up and just respond to what you've heard. Please introduce yourself for that. The people watching on tv. Good morning. Good morning. >> brush a finance I would have with me, Chris Isro, our Treasury Treasurer. And I appreciate the opportunity to to dress the discussions and the recommendation. Committee members. It's a really we welcome the first to actually we welcome all all of them. But the first 2 are ones that we were in the process of discussing with our outside consultant's. >> Can you either lower the microphone or you're kind of going in and out? >> That's an amazing this microphone. That's better what I was saying is that we were in the process of reviewing based on the overage is that we've experienced in the budget in the past and discussing with our outside consultant and >> what you have before you, I think simplifies of super complex process, which that's job to do that. And we appreciate working with the council auditors office too, to talk about the details and the specifics of everything that goes behind it. It's a very, complex process. When we have the 2 point, whatever billion dollars worth of a debt portfolio. We're definitely open to for the for the first 2. They were already in the works for our part. And so we appreciate that regarding the the municipal Code budget ordinance provision for the debt savings. We we. I think I think we understand we were talking about a factor in terms of the functional application of of what this is. So we're we're good with that. What we do want to make sure is that we look at in total at savings in total that we've got different funds and different debt payments and pieces, whether it's solid waste or other areas and we would want to make sure that there are savings in total and not just in one pocket and that we have that all set first before we apply them to to anything else which I suspect is probably the intention anyway. You want to respond to that. MISTER Taylor. >> chair to chair a MAY have to have more conversation with their. Mean, we're looking at just the general fund. I don't disagree. We want to make sure we can meet all of our debt payments. Never want to have an issue where the city never one headline that says the city is not meeting its debt payments. So certainly welcome conversation on that to make sure we were making a recommendation as far as the general fund. That were were taking it all into account. >> I would be very interested sponsoring such legislation and premier together. And if the committee would like to do it as a whole. But I want to make sure that the 2 of you all have further discussions. So we know exactly what work covering so everyone's on board with hopefully would be. >> Smooth sailing as well as it would. It would prevent this rating of this account for other uses as it develops. And we have got to stop that. From both sides. In my opinion. So if you'll have have those discussions and let me know we'll we'll go from there. >> Yes, there. And if I MAY mention one more thing because we I mentioned in the past that prior meetings and then again today don't want any of the committee members caught off guard. What I have mentioned is that they MAY. You know, I some debt savings that we don't. We don't have the final calculations yet. We get the first quarterly summary as far as what range. Think they're going to be in the 24. 25 range. That we saw that of 10 million based on preliminary. But we don't have final calculations. So as far as savings there MAY be an attention deed to use that for the 2 point to roughly that senior citywide, your non departmental to help cover some of those costs. That would be your sheehan's. That would be the different ones that were part of that lapse. So that would require legislation because they don't have the transfer authority to move from debt savings to their over the 500,000 for that purpose. So just want to make you wear that even if you're considering doing this legislation, there MAY be a piece before that that occurs that MAY be used to address some of that lapse in the city. >> But you mentioned 23 million potentially. And that's 5.8 So there's still a significant difference between the 2 correct? >> Through the chair, preliminary numbers are looking around 10 Million. I don't know if overturned Treasury has any. >> You need to get on brought. >> Through the chair, we're just talking about the citywide. A mention 2.0 2 million is what I said. Not for the 5, 5.0 8 total, but just for the citywide 2.2 >> Well, I I would suggest that we all have those discussions and come back. Come back to me and we'll lot decide on. Introducing such legislation. Councilmember areas. You're recognized. All right. Thank you. Chair out. >> So I just want to make sure I heard care, which I'm on the same page as he You know, our operating reserves are sitting pretty healthy as it is right now. The last couple years. We definitely not into it. So if for next fiscal year budget, when we look at the whole process, we're obviously going to be looking not the next 2 years. We're going to be pretty high debt obligations that we have to meet and so. What I don't want is the same thing happen this year, which was we're looking not cutting critical services to our community to be able to put money into reserves, which were definitely going to still do what assessed all the different compartments departments and to make sure that we save as much as possible, put into reserves to make it even more healthier. But I would be in favor of using some operating reserves to pay off some right. That as well too. So as a dose committee, do we do some sort of resolution so that we incoming PRESIDENT We approve this or is this part of our wrap-up meeting where we we put everything together and send the report to the Finance Committee and the Finance Committee sends it to the PRESIDENT Caracal or like what's the next step to make sure that people understand that? Because for the longest that I've been in council, I've always heard whenever touching operators, which I'm good with that. But obviously, when there's a need for it, there's a need and this would be a need that I would definitely be ok with. So how do we compete is to not only our colleagues but the rest of Jacksonville has heard over and over that were never touching the reserves. You asking to use or or part? Well, we have tapped reserves for for completion grants in recent years to some extent and I'm not opposed to that, but I want to make sure we we have it from my perspective. One of 19, we have squeezed the budget as much as we can before we do that. I hear the comment about critical services and I agree with you. But one of the reasons we've been so effective in building up a reserve so that we can possibly do that. Now the mayor's administration puts forward a budget. There are restrictions on how much reserves they can use that through legislation that we passed. I want to say it's 20 Million. It's either a percentage, but I think it came out to around 20 million dollars. Is that? >> Through air to the chair, believe you're quick to believe. It's 1.2 5% of the total budget which roughly came out to the. >> 20 million number. Yes. So there are provisions there for them to tap the reserves if they feel like it's necessary. But there are limits to that. So. >> Thank you, chair. I guess my my question was, do we send some sort of letter recommendation or resolution or and our final report that we add that into the final report. >> We can do that. We we issue a final report engine. Okay. Thank you. And we can do that. We should definitely add that in there just to make sure that all 19 understand that we would be ok with that as well. Ok, thank you. >> Councilmember Miller. Thank you, MR. Chair. I just wanted to thank the auditors for the work on this as well as all the other things that they've done. All 3 of in my opinion are very solid. >> And we all should take in 20 seriously. I would. Happy to hear MR. Make comments to the fact that I believe there. They're good with the 3 that are here as well. So that's a good sign that I believe it's been received. Well, and hopefully then in the doing or application. Part of that will all look. At these as as guidelines for us to try to do these things to save safe. And so again, the otters, thank you very much. 3 solid recommendations. I do want to make an additional comment, though, through to the on the completion grants. We pretty much know when that's going to happen. Yes, once a while they moved to the right because things do happen in the world that caused that. But we should not have Astra saying we don't know. We don't know for sure winds who are not going to plan this in our budget. In my opinion, completion grants that were already approved should be in every year's budget and projected out as well. Also on the operating reserves. Yes, I think there are times when. That's needed. But boy, I'm in agreement. We should be limiting those times. And, you know, like you do at home live within your own budget. You have a budget live within it not say, oh, well, I want to do more and I want to spend more. So it's going in the operating reserves. Now, that is not the way we should be doing business. And so that's why I think sometimes limits are needed as was discussed on going into these operating reserves. So I think that the checks and balances are solid. They're good but I think we need to minimize and the thinking let's go into those operating reserves, whether it be for completion grants or any other things because in my opinion, as was discussed by the chair, we need to wean ourselves off of these completion grants. Yes, I understand the purpose jump-starting I get a little worried when I see officials get up and say who used to be against completion grants saying now it MAY, it could be up to 10 years now before will start pulling off of those completion grants. That's dangerous in my opinion, that kind of talk. And so we need to be careful about that and supporting that kind of thinking because the cranes are out there. Projects are coming out ground. We've got momentum downtown. We need to be careful. There's a fine line there on being able to encourage these projects. So I certainly believe we need to be serious about. Each one of these completion grants that comes through and I've heard of hospitals wanting them for parking garages, heard of others. With with big big budgets saying, well, if they're getting it, we should get it too. I'm just putting that warning out there that we as a body need to be very careful about these completion grants. So thank you, MR. Chair our last speaker is Councilmember r Us. Thank you, And I definitely agree with Council. Remember, you know, the conversation Commission grant has come up are ready. >> Through our downtown committee and I've had multiple people from the community reach out say, hey, what's going on? Are you guys going council? The completion grants and my answer to them was we're not stopping any way now. But the conversation needs to be held now so that we in the future, we can start cleaning off of it because what I don't want to do have the momentum to stop because the trains are up in the air. But at the end day, we also we put ourselves in a bind. And I say we because you're housing council. We were also approving these these companies and brands without really knowing what's ahead of us now that the otters and i know you guys been doing a great job since day one, but now that we're asking the right questions and we have a list of completion grants coming up, we're definitely mindful of what we approve. What we do improve. I agree. I don't think we should tap into reserves just pfa completion ground. But we got ourselves in this in this predicament. So we need to get out of it at some point. But moving forward, we need to be more 5 mindful of what we approach approve. But on the other end, I think that there's other ways to incentivize people to come to downtown, open up their businesses should even give them any kind of monetary incentive. I'm working on a bill that's actually being filed today to be able to help out but restaurants and bars to operate a little bit longer, which will generate more revenue for them. So that means that other restaurants and bars and say I want to move to downtown pay my business downtown because now I have an extra hour operations. So that's what we have been incentivizing people without having to go into our own operating reserves or general fund. So we need to be creative. How we bring up the Vincennes without having to actually pay for them ourselves. So 100% agree with everybody here. And I think we forward a council. We're going to be looking at is competing rights as a hawk, but to the community and charity out there just know that we're not stopping in now. It's just a matter of we have to have the conversation so that we in the next couple of years we can start leaning off of it because we're not just going to go, you know, ripped the band-aid off from one day to another and used to be obviously smooth transition. So that's all I have to say, sir. Thank you. Thank you. Well said, as you no one else in the queue. We are adjourned. Thank you. >> You want get to place just just do things with the chair. I'll be super faster than what you lunch. >> One is I like to get jta back to get an update on the autonomous vehicle It does not today in 2 weeks, but within a month or so of our meetings. I've got obviously some good questions for them. In my opinion. And the second thing is I'm putting together legislation that will create a new committee for the Council and Oversight Committee. I like I think it makes sense for a dose. A look at that and really the idea is not for me to great committee, but for us perhaps too take the idea of doge and implement into a full standing committee doesn't have to be a big one. Could be 3 members. But I do think there needs to be a place permanently. That does what we're doing do seems to be little political like people in Lexington think there's a problem toes. But oversight is everybody years of that and every level of government set for here, there's oversight. So put the legislation together for Mary. Have to do it and and just love it. If we can all come up with it. But if not, no prom, I just want to I'm not trying to own it. I'm just trying to bring it up to everybody here. Thanks. Anyone else, counsel Mueller. Thank you, MR. Chair just it. Just a quick one on the way forward I really like the things that you brought up that the auditors have helped to with be able to bring forward. You know, I think there are a lot of good things we're working on here. I just would like to see going forward if we can in every way possible set. The finance committee up for success in this next budget process. A lot of things we've already looked at are doing that. But I I want also suggest we should be looking at prioritization, honor, discretionary funding side. We can't just go to autopilot and say all those that are going on and the amounts they're all good. Let's just keep them going. And let's look into other areas. The Aggies done some good work. The otters have done some good work. I think we could still do some more things to look at all of our discretionary funding areas to be able to. Help the full council with prioritization. Do we need to be spending the money on the things we're spending the money on? Are we getting the results? Is it having the impact? And should we continue in those areas if we aren't getting the impact, the results or maybe something that was has been done for a long time isn't something we want to continue to do again prioritization. So I I think there's some more things we can get that. And and so I I think we need to do everything we can to set. The finance committee up for success in this net budget process. And again, thank you. As chair and the other members, the auditors, everyone who have been part of this process and I agree with Councilmember Diamond, we need to continue this. Not just in that in a sense because it's maybe a looks like a spinoff of some other levels efforts oversight. Transparency, accountability, giving the taxpayers the most. We can give them for their dollars. That should be everyone's concern and everyone's business. So thank you very much, MR. MR. Chair they make 2 comments and then we'll adjourn. Number one council member. I could not agree with you more. >> Dozier has a issue, frankly and having some type of oversight, a permanent oversight committee. Some are did this. I think it's a terrific idea. I think the biggest cost savings that we can put in place to help the budget is to the health care analysis that we're doing. There are potentially millions and millions of dollars in savings there that we're going to hear about in the near future that that can flow right into the buzzer. Good. Okay. Thank everyone. We are