Public Notice Meeting Ordinance 2025-0781 City Funding for Higher Education Meeting

>> The reported that you speak to speak to Mike and and then is in the back. So he went to take a phone call. >> All right. So thank you guys for joining me today. Has won yesterday and have one again tomorrow. Just for those who haven't been able to learn more about the legislation's at hand right now. And so quick, bird's-eye view is 50 million dollars will begin at 6 minutes for you in at 5 for Fscj. 2.7 for E W one for NAFTA and 3.25. For Workforce and Dutch industry trade center. Everybody has a different piece. Pittman is that one and then obviously fscj and all over the county. So I just want to hear from you guys, your feedback as to your concerns or will you like about it? And we liked like to see changed. Obviously, this is going to committees next week. And so what I'm having to do is it's going to come to neighborhoods and finance. I have want to have all 5 entities have minimum 3 minutes to present. So total, 15 minutes, all together to do the whole presentation on this. But I would like for us to give me feedback cycle, give item today or this week that we can address that for you guys next week. So yet. >> Going through ever. It's a major. My first question is like this, you know, kind of the genesis of these dollars and where they're going to is CBS stuff. >> Dollars do not come from the CBA know and will they be counted toward CBA? That was a question that I think council early and had yesterday. And I know Mister Peters and I just asked him to follow than that. So they're going to have a meeting on that tomorrow, though, you see to determine how much of that truly can be fscj. I don't cite the CBA out of the all of it will be anything, but it's all these up with the tennis. >> They're I mean, I know that we've got the special committee and like I really thought there for anything CBA related would really come out of our committee for us. And it would put a lot of time and attention to the east side portion of the CBA and for obvious reasons of why we're doing that. I just want to make sure that as we you know, we CA we carved out a few bucks for for CBA already. And I did support some of those. The site is my main priority. But when it comes to the workforce development side and I know at this huge as a role playing it. But like, you know, we were kind of talking with economic development and Randolph. I think they were talking a lot with careersource and kind of what, what? What that could look like for a county wide economic development. Our workforce development, I'm sorry, workforce development program. And I just want to leave that by the wayside. Right? Like I'm hoping that we're talking with that. I'm hoping we're talking with economic development because it was the him so economic development, the chamber Careersource, which is a state of Florida entity on how tough create these different programs certifications and then a pipeline to job placement. And I mean, that's that's workforce development. That to me is not only exciting but seems like a more holistic view of what to do. Cba dollars again, if that's not what all these are, I just want to make sure that's known. There are other great plans out there. And I don't want there to be AM want to show the right forces are in the room. I like when you when I started the CBA committee, I think we told Chamber Taylor was there that we told the chamber at the CJ Economic Development. We want to just in case they do. Pearson might have some some answers will show that. Michael, here we thank you for that. He said like getting a room, figure out what workforce on looks like. Come back to us. Like you guys know, you guys are first development that we have. Well, so that, you know, that's kind of my first big, I guess, just sort of statement slash question, Mark. I don't want all these dollars to be considered workforce development and now we miss out on may zing opportunities to create a proper pipeline for a lot of tax. But residents who, yeah, I hope that we created programs that could anyone in Duval County to take advantage of. So so that's kind of there by first thought in the second one, I think was a customer Hollins kind of Vice President. Alan, my son is going to say to, but like I do want to talk about UW. And I think it's telling around the room, but I've got I've got some concerns overall about what their relationship with the city's been. And I want to make sure that that that I can get those concerns out to me just on our eye. >> No, they're not here. So, but I still want to talk to you was a bill sponsored and know that it's on to some of your question. First of all, the work force component of it, you know, careers, this is a great center resource, obviously, but there's so many more. So, I mean, we can't just list them all in this bill. I know that for a fact that the CBA conversation, there are no CBA dollars. It's whatever we identified throughout the budget process that we say okay, that is deemed as potential the bcb dollars that's verify, verify. And then we top of the CBA dollars. That doesn't mean that we can't in a month from now find another funding source for other workforce development initiatives. So shes career. So sure that's the case. They're not in my current legislation right now, quite frankly, because I've never met with them. The eye focused primarily on, though, the ones that I know that are doing the work for when it comes to workforce development, which is not fog is the fscj and then the workforce. And that's a trend. But that doesn't mean that I don't. >> I think the careersource is worthy of these dollars. If this isn't like only see be a rough like on a fraction of these dollars is going to be game CBA. And this is where I want Vice President Palin kind to me his thoughts like and then, okay, sure, workforce development is a great thing. And there are so many different organizations that are doing great stuff. But again, I do want sort of the the experts and especially the ones who work in this building that I that I think no workforce development very well. And state of Florida is by no means some the bill bastion of anything. >> Careersource is a good group. The going to show you that 50 million dollars would not be for CBA when we had our CBA conversations. Multiple committees years. We brought to the room. Fsu was there, which is whether the point of this we brighten up as well to the conversation. So I don't know if I don't recall careersource being at one of these meetings, which is why I didn't think about them. I said that doesn't mean that you can pass some legislation. Some point you find the funding source or maybe we we maneuver this a little differently, but that's not parsed Mr. Peterson, if you want to touch on the CBA part of it. >> Its share to cause or police. I just want to kill the cherry us kind of hit on it. The sickly for Unf would not count the U.S. 2.6, 7, 5, for UW would not count the 325,000 for workforce. Industrial training we think is me too. I mean, they're literally training people to be certified in various trades. We're working with us to determine what part of the million dollars, because a part of it is for expansion of their training center. Part of it is just need their new facility. So we're trying to figure out what percentage of the million and then the conversation that Mr. Areas reference to with juicy Tamara to figure out the 5 million for fscj because the 5 million is just for the purchase of a building. They're going to have to make improvements and then put in the equipment in this. Are there other stages to get to being able to train people? Not sure if that's going to be determined or not, that the we we did say that the fire. >> The fire tower that we're building the burn tower, that that is just what to do. That was so I would I would find it. I assume that this is probably going to be that same criteria should be because it is workforce training center that ultimately I'm just yes, yes. >> Okay. So unf any W will not be like but that's which is a it's gonna be about 8.7 million dollars worth of it and that will not be for you. It's as it is right, right. I let them chime in for senator to come. >> You're in the teens or yeah. Thank you. Council variance. I have a couple questions. What is the name again of the Workforce? Industrial Development organization, workforce Industrial Training Center. That's what is okay. I know this is a one-off of Ms Pena's district of us that help. I heard they do great things for Philip. What is our expected deficit for next year? >> My recollection is that in the 50 to 60 Million dollar range. Okay. >> And then if if this money word to not get spent on this, could it offset that deficit next year and how? >> Yeah, through the chair or counter Helen, I think in the Middle East, the word creatives, the word that comes to mind. But it's like creative accounting. It's a bad I think it could yet. So the money the money is not spent in the current year, it will fall to reserves and then to fund a one-time expenditures next year, the biggest on the cause of mines, the 25 million dollars for the shipyards completion grant. So it could be used to fund that if you I didn't want to pull money out of reserves as part of the budget. You could take money this money, if you will, and kind of pre fund any of those completion grants. And we have another a gateway one that ultimately led to believe is in the 5 to 8 million dollar range. And there's a couple others, the largest contributor to next year's deficit. Are the completion grants. Okay. >> So in other words, you could attribute it to a or several completion grants to reduce our future expected deficit next year. Say it 60. You could receive reduced it to 45 with this money that absolutely. Okay. So I just brought that up because at looking at the 5 projects, I'll tell you where I am immediately support of. We're still at my questions in my my viewpoint is evolving right now. Immediately supportive of the workforce Industrial Training center because I've heard that does great things of NAFTA and of fscj. I just have more questions on Ewn Unf which together you're right or about 8.7 million dollars of it. And here's why. I think we're we have a new reality this year. That was different than their first year in council. And I think that new reality is driven by expected fewer ad valorem collections, which is what's partially driving the the the future expected deficits, but even more. So the second reason and that is that we have already committed and future liabilities, you know, like the stadium CBA Pearl District, the Florida graduate campus, shipyards, lot of liabilities that are now budget and showing those future deficits. That doesn't mean that we can still support good projects. And I think there's a lot of good projects here. But what it means is that we're now living in an era where we've got a priority us and we've got to say all right, is spending on how to CNN that unf better than investing more in meals and wheels. Is it better than investing more affordable housing? Is it better than investing in reducing our future deficit? Next year, 60 million down to 54 Million. Is the of spend on meth has a a workforce development training center better than additional meals on wheels or reduction of our future deficits. It all all. The money is all fungible and it's the same as the money in your own account. What are you going to spend it on? And it becomes a matter of priorities that we have to look at. Is the city just like we have to look at our own household expenditure. So then you look at all right. Well, what our party as well as a council, we priorities to prioritize the CBA, which includes affordable housing workforce development. And personally when I'm I've always made the argument when I have money left over, I always want to use it to increase workforce development, create jobs, which is why I'm immediately supportive of him of the workforce development, industrial training center, fscj and NAFTA. But I still have my concerns there involving, but I still have my concerns at UW and Unf. And if there's a way to fashion, those asks to where they're more palatable or find another bit of money, you know, for example, what we're doing it Cecil Field is trying to grow their space industry development without using taxpayer money and using other funds to do it. Could we use other money for u N F 4 E W to help them get over the line? All the things I'm still working and and I'm what I'm really worried about, is it it? I'm trying to come to grips with it all being one bill. Great projects. One bill, would the project's be better off being split in the bills like a workforce development bill and higher education bill or something like that? These are just thoughts that I have a cause. For example, if I'm if I'm not sold on Unf any W but I'm sold on the other 03:00AM, I going to vote for those other 3? And then, you know, as part of this big bill and then, you know, 0.7 million, I'm voting for Philip, what's 15, -8.7, some voting for 6.3 to bring another 8008.7 across. And I'm not sure I could do that. So maybe it's best if they're split. I don't know. But I'm doesn't mean I'm no on any of these means. That's my current thinking. >> All right. I was looking on the bus bill. That's where you're getting married, doesn't it yet? So I structured this in this specific way on purpose. I I'm not going to sugar coat anything. I think everybody here as well deserving of a I think the each bring their own special special aspect to it. Right. So as workforce is higher education, some of that sheen over the realm of sports and wreck, right? An improvement. So this is it a specific workforce Bill, it's like it's like the title says one percent higher education. Bill, I do agree with you if I'm here to be a team player with everybody. I feel that based off of yesterday's conversation based off of what I gather so far today, which obviously I haven't see much, but you give me some some kind of, you know, come in is on this part here potentially. And then tomorrow have another meeting. And then I have councilmember Salem here walking in. >> 20 minutes late yesterday. You didn't do that, sir. You then thank you to all its. >> And I so going back to Old Saint Nick. I feel like the council, the body wants to support all of them. But I also want to make sure that I support all of you all. So I would be happy to see what we're there's a world where we split this up. But I definitely want to make sure that we split up. We think the month up the same night to get everything across the board is I'm not trying to have these downloads continue on. I've been doing this for months already with Mary Mis Peterson's. Well, we had conversations with all the entities for over 4 hours here and they're still having back and forth conversation. So whether we support or not, I want to see this come to an end, but I definitely will entertain the splitting of the the bill. Okay. I so say is that I think get it in. >> It'll come up in neighborhoods committee. Maybe some will recommend the split. >> And you hear about some out anything. One thing, too. >> Though, can we how would that work? Because if you split, you put in a separate bills, the other bills that have to run as emergencies alongside said there might be a valid services question. And that is that right now is this is an emergency meeting of its regular. So if you split it with the others off, they have to go urgency to get on cycle. >> And now I see it right now. It's a regular bill is actually said yes, correct? Yeah. He confirmed that yesterday that it was a long cycle. But I have so many bills and right now, but it's definitely regular process. So if we decide split it up this week, yes week we could do the others and Iran and now as well as herbal tea at the same night that the other could be an emergency. I I don't know. >> Phillip, maybe you would know best. Would we be able to put it on the same cycle if we did a one cycle emergency at the same time as a regular bill when it's amended in committee. >> So we could effect in Cs. There was a motion to some hospitals are split and whatever form or fashion. As long as the bill was filed on Wednesday, if you did a one cycle emergency and then deferred the bill, this bill either at in CS or at council the followings cycle in the second week in know, our second cycle in November that the second bill could be taken up for a full take the take up of both bills at the November 25th meeting or I mean, the other option I hated is in an outer emergency filed Wednesday, taking up a council the same cycle. This one would be taking up if this with the committee's next week. So right, I would actually prefer. >> It actually it actually happened. That's why through and I hate it could happen. But I would I mean, I I don't want to be one person dictating, you know, the favorites is dollar, but it could be. I think that's a good discussion. Haven't neighborhoods committee and I'll be there. So I don't know if you heard and I started off with a conversation, but at the beginning of neighborhoods and that's a chair and also to be in finance. >> I'm gonna make sure that we have 15 minutes allotted for presentations. 3 minutes, each entity and questions. I really just want them to present. And if anybody has questions at the end, we got some questions. I just want to go back and forth with every into the otherwise sunny, trying to make an hour of a presentation. But I definitely feel you and hear you and that person. I would love to support you on that if the amendment is causing that point. Yeah, I think on the other part is looking for different dollars, Mr. Peters and I'm sending going where I called him yesterday. And I asked him if there's any way that we could look at other dollars because unf at UW right now in the process of the Derby is a little different because a building doors, but also going to build some sort of is a three-phase approach. And one of those phases has to do with which is not the phase that we're in right now for phase one. But one of the phases is going to be for like track. And I don't know what it is. And then which I think is the last phase and then unf their Hodges stadium. They're building classrooms in the stadiums, but really phase one is going to be necessary because that way they could tap into the other 6 million dollar matching grants. They have 12 out to him and others for phase one. And it's going to be for infrastructure improvements. Fee see all kinds, something the mechanicals of of the stadium and then a couple of soccer fields. But I get to the point is that unf the reason why we're doing this or why I would like to do is because the holes, a lot of NCAA tournaments and they are in the ICU bed and one already in a war potentially for a NCAA Division, 2 tournament here in Jax one 2028. And if this stadium was renovated to the capacity should be, they're going to be winning more. So tourism wise is going to track more tourism for, you know, heads in beds. So I ask Mr. Pearson's, okay. Can we time it isn't easy tdt dollars as well to maybe not the full 6 minute, maybe 2 million to offset that. And then my question would be if we can find 2 men on the tdc dollars. To your point, I would like to see maybe if there's a world where this bill that's titled Workforce Development, Education can also have another 3rd component, which is affordable housing, as you mention the percent. That's still. And then I mean that I want to explore based off of the feedback that he gives me. So I think you said by the end that we do have an answer on that part. >> Mr. Patterson is there. So I've been in discussions with the attorney on this having a final meeting tomorrow to try to nail down. But the early stages are as long as the tdc dollars could be used for the Hunter Stadium Project. >> Beacon. >> There's there's outlining the force that use allows for remodel repair maintenance operations of a public facility that its primary purpose is the attraction of tourists. And so that's the the delineation that has to be made by the governing body, which will be all so as long as that we all felt that was the purpose of this appropriation and TT dollars with. >> Stand to be appropriate for that purpose. And I thank you, Mr. Chair the that's actually a really interesting point because I mean, Unf is competing. Whenever they're they're they're competing against another school, which is coming into town or or what have you and probably taking up hotel rooms or using facilities and somethign very often, probably more often than unf competitions there. They're open for things that just track and field events. So it definitely I'll bet you're we could justify the use of the money along those lines about primarily generating tourism. But there's another shot. I have an icy. The representative from Unf are here. If we were to if the ask a 6 million and where to pull 2 or 3 million from T D C could the remaining money. The money comes from the city's ad valorem collections and the revenue that we're using to pay going to be something other than the stadium directly. Could it be the classrooms or the curriculum or whatever else is going in the Hunter Stadium? So therefore, we're not funding the stadium because we've we get a lot of headache for funding stadiums. >> On this list. So I do know that's there's 3 phases. And I don't know in which phase of classrooms or in their face to what I'm getting. So phase one is literally not even it is the stadium, but is also as media likes of HTC the convict. The mechanicals of those is the not necessarily like that doesn't whistles of the stadium. >> Because if we're talking higher education, if its if some of it is going to be classrooms and curriculum development and equipment and operating costs, I mean, maybe that's a more palatable you use of of taxpayer dollars to drive, you know, folks to get degrees at Unf Arena, working the scene and working in Jacksonville rather than building an understated. And I agree with you. But here's the thing. >> And Panama not has done here, but they say something like you can put the cart before the horse. Whatever the saying is is the same thing here. You want the classrooms that we can have concerts into the infrastructure is actually put in place. The agencies working water, hot water system, make all that and components to do so again, a part and I would love to improve the world have that in spades want, but you can't have that phase one, if you truly the buildings on the pie. And it's really a hazard to students right now. That is so it's not just bells and whistles, really more of a safety aspect interview toward the scene, which I know you have. It's not signing great shape. So and we could be in jeopardy of losing these potential tourism, you know, events. So that's where like I feel young, that part. But we can't get to that phase until we tackle phase one. However, the tz probably definitely be at some of that. You have we'd like to chime in this 90. You know, my coming to the mike, is it about him and their stadiums? And then I have Mister Salem up next. And I do have to leave it for another general meeting. >> The only thing I wanted to add is the 6 million matched can only be used for Hodges Stadium, like the money that they have raised is already allocated toward Hodges that we can really expand it outside of that. There's not a match. >> I mean, I ask that you double up, pull to come back to us and tell us how our money to be used to make sure it's not used and residential and dorms, but instead use for conference center for public purpose. And I mean, that's kind of what I'm also thinking. Is there any way you would have to adjust the money that's contributed from the city? Not necessarily tdc. Consider that separately for something other than just stadium renovation. >> Well, it's one that will bring the next 2. Thank you. Thank you. Can see the neighborhoods. All right. All right. Mister Salem, Rechnitz. >> Thank you. And I apologize. Coming in late. I heard a discussion of splitting. Are there are there council members that are indicating they want to vote for one component versus another? I personally am concerned about the split and then we're going to lose some votes on certain components. And I worry about that. You know what? It's altogether. They're probably component some people like more than others. I'm one that likes the unf component personally. And because I been involved in sports and we we help that track and field many, many years ago through our sports and entertainment board. What's the thought of says the split? >> Yet, Mister Holland, just he alluded to the fact of, you know, how he does like workforce training efforts to gin up. But he doesn't like the wru enough. And so he asked if there will be a world that we can spend it. I said I would definitely engage in that. So he's a one of the first person actually brought to my attention. I know yesterday when you hear Mr, Clinton actually liked you in a few light. All of them except UW. He has some questions for you, though. You might see him as Mister Bush on ongoing on this. We got these next. But I feel that even if we split it as it is right now, there's a consensus that everybody wants to support almost all of them except for one. Then really they'll be here tomorrow and E W be here tomorrow is W Tahman and obviously they'll be here next week. >> To present both times, I just have a personal concern that the split will call some votes to disappear, checked and >> you're you're monitoring better than I am. And >> I don't how scene and neighborhoods. So we'll see what kind of an amen neighborhoods in it. I would not be in favor of hobby there then that night or that they too. So, but I would prefer not to spend it. But if it makes my colleagues want to support for the most part, and I feel confident that we could get a pass across the board out that it will do it at home. It's whatever the body wants. But yeah, I want to turn and you get your favorites meeting or not. You like all of them. >> Yeah, from these are the male, you know enough. I mean, I'm pretty much in favor of all of them. Milan did bring some things to my attention as well. I mean, I think for me, it's just a matter of just on salon. Where does the research and what's best for us in terms of the funding source, the whole 9 yards? He did. Yeah. So I mean, for right now, I guess on the surface, I am a ferry with all of you know, I am familiar with workforce development side. Also to my, you know, look at Summit, Leon enough, the W I don't know much about, but, you know, it will be before the neighborhood is to lose to Monday's, I guess, maybe a more information about it as a right now on the surface, you know, unless something else come up good, you know, but that could change as Monday. And Tuesday comes, though, for me, I'm here just to I guess learners are. That is more from more information about this bill and just see what happens mentally. I think this is a >> thank you chair. And yet a kind of kind of spawned a little bit of accounts where Salem was asking. I mean, it's about what Jermaine and the language should be germane to maybe one thing. I don't disagree with Councilman Alan, but I'm also gone on next week hum. So at the end of the day and also on the committee. So who cares what I say? But I do. I do think the FBI do an affordable housing building, affordable housing bill. If you're doing it higher education bill, to have the case, bill, like to kind of to create an omnibus bill like this is a fascinating I think, Al for Salem to sort of wheat. The logic behind it used to build consensus by putting everything in one bill. So the end of the day, the logic is there. I get it. I just I I do think all the should stand on their own merits. I got a problem with the stadium. I because I do think especially if you use different funding sources, especially tdc that does make perfect sense to me. I'm but been that can somehow left because actually when it comes to the wps, the thing I'm more excited about is the dorms because that's more young people living in that neighborhood, which I think it really helped to revitalize the neighborhood. I think there's a economic incentive and economic development piece to that that that really needs to be sort of explored. But but overall, I think everyone's trying to to properly tap into what they believe public dollars should be able to go to and for what purpose. And you already heard some icy ba concerns. And hopefully we do kind of talk more about the list to be what the rest of the CBA dollars can go to when it comes to UW when it comes to an after these multi phase approaches. I really want to see what all the look like. I know free W the neighborhood doesn't always feel like it's getting the benefit of what just the university gets. And so there's a lot of relationships there that I think still need to be a massage of it. I want to make sure before we invest a large amount of money into that neighbor and that community that the community members kind of get a good sense of it. I don't think they've heard about it like that. That is a genuine concern of mine because I still have a lot of things that I I have asked the W 4 and they've done no, I reach towards me on it and on the council member for it so like their needs and that community. But I think he W can help fulfill and be supportive of and there's been no interest in doing so. On top of that, they have now kick this off of the Newtown success Park, which is they had a joint use agreement with the city of Jacksonville and myself and Councilwoman Tara Park. Murray put money aside. I think it was several hundreds of thousands of dollars to put money into that park and then UW punted away from us. Same thing, Rachel. Sweet, so sweet, which is a city-owned building on their land right now. I think we're on a month-to-month lease 19 to know what the future that looks like. So before we kind of jump into a long-term relationship with UW on something, I think they do need want to make sure that we know everything we're doing with UW like Unf has always had a brilliant relationship with the city of Jacksonville has has fscj so like I need immediately to to to walk us through this. And I'm not going to be around next week and it's really frustrating. >> Well, this obviously what >> Well, this obviously what I'll do is they become next week and obviously we take a final vote on the final weeks. All set up a meeting on Monday. Public notice meeting before council night. You could ask questions. Here's the thing to lie to you and all these. For the most part, Mister Peterson could confirm that reimbursable status, meaning for all these pieces of of funding sources for them. Andy, the abuse when I spoke to him, if they have a 0.7 in the budget, we wipe that out because we really have no idea what it was 4 when I spoke to them and that conversation really city, this is a three-year project for them. You know, one really need 2.7. And that's really going to be the second spring meantime, for the next year. So we have a lot of time to how those meetings with the community before we even decide to proceed anything. It some money will be in a place holder from Mr. Pearson will give you more details on that as he walks up. I just my philosophy, especially on public funds going into. >> Especially probably >> Especially probably university in this community. Is there better be a massive value add for the remainder of the cause of the neighbors and like that needs to be of paramount importance? We help put money into the gym and some of those facilities because public members of the public can use that facility like Shell Suite has a clinic. We need to make sure that clinic sticks around because it is a medical desert. It's still a food desert because a lot of housing that needs to be attended to groups like what happens at UW should be very beneficial to everyone else. And I want to make sure as we look at a multi year effort, I'm glad we are doing that like, hey, maybe you get access to these funds now, but for the next 2 phases, if you want anything, you got to do this. This and this and revitalization effort and Mr. Beast. >> So NASA isn't reimbursement >> So NASA isn't reimbursement basis. Uw is on a work, performed an invoice basis. So date, they say, do they do have the cash flow to the whole project. So they're going to work with public works. Bill signed the contract public works will review the invoices after they're submitted by the contractor, be able to go out and view the work that's been done and then we'll make the payment to the contractor so you to use them for the money. We're first industrial training is on a gradual basis as they get paid $3,250 per person that graduates from their 7 week program. So they could be out the whole now that, you know, and graduates that's the unf isn't reimbursement basis entirely and fscj since there purchasing the building the city. I believe Taylor, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the city will make the payment to Fscj a 3rd about 3 days before they actually purchased the building to be able to make that contribution rather than them having to front the 5 million and then seek reimbursement. But we're not we will not make that payment to them until we've reviewed the purchase and sale agreement and they are at least 3 days out from closing. >> All right. And that's a half >> All right. And that's a half of tonight or today. So the answer. Yes. Thank you. Guys are joins me next year. >> The the argument about >> The the argument about working this for months